Now that the whole cheating ordeal is dying down, at least in regards to the number of people being caught, its time to reflect upon what the next step is to take. While we still await Clanbase's actions on the whole situation, I put forward a question for you.
Can you ever trust a cheater? Once a cheater, always a cheater?
Now it was understandable in most cases some of the pure hatred amongst the community against the revealed cheaters. As up until recently and still for the majority of the players the game was competitively played online only, and for someone like
h3 who has been caught now twice, and among one of the main 
Fusen targets there really can be no forgiveness. But as the tide of change engulfs competitive Enemy Territory, could the long held belief of once a cheater always a cheater be broken too ? I put forward some cases to warrant discussion.
1:) The Past
Regardless of how you feel about Hype / Kamz the fact remains, he was busted by Crossfire's very own 
TosspoT in RTCW, but as yet, after 2 years of competitive Enemy Territory in which his current clan 
#ovs-gaming nearly reached the pinnacle of Eurocup this season, and with there new lineup look in good stead to play in it next season, has yet to be busted. Now forgiveness is hard to come by in real life and even harder in the online arena, but the fact remains he is not a cheater anymore.
2:)The Present
The 2nd and more compelling case is that of
mize who participated in the Netherlands triumph over 
Finland and 
Germany in Nations Cup to lead them to 
Nations Cup IX glory, and was actively part of the Angeldust side which took 
in last seasons Open Cup Premier and even more recently playing with mQ and cdap pi sides. Now I personally believe, and most likely the majority of people who played with/against him would believe that he hadn't hacked before the 3v3 incident.
Now Enemy Territory has evolved to the point where players like mize, and those in the same boat (who are under a high amount of suspicion or have been caught), more LAN's can gift these players that 2nd chance which maybe they deserve, if a team will take the chance on them.
“h3 was busted cheating a while ago, but apparently that was a one time thing. I foolishly enough defended him” -TosspoT
If even the most venerable characters of ET such as Tosspot, can get it wrong, maybe the cheaters themselves, having seen the consequences admit they made a mistake, serve there bans and become legit once again. Can the likes of mize, Perfo, Nuggan, Unix, Razz, Wizzel, joonas,Torpso, danone, squall, foSt, vegi, and mAus become the pinnacle of new generation of players who compete both online and offline? I sure hope so, and given the relatively close locations of LAN events (
ShG Open and CPC2), if they are given the opportunity to do so, completely and undoubtedly clear there names once and for all! So noting what has been said and done, can you forgive a cheater who is willing to play on LAN to prove his worth ?
Edit: Another interesting point which ive come across, given the relative slowness of which clanbase works at, would it not make sense to make sure it first and foremost ensures that its own matches are governed correctly/appropiately. Why does Clanbase have any say and the right to bad people whom cheat on a public server or do so in scrims which have nothing to do with clanbase, intriguing that the community somehow embraces this monopoly over our game.
[Players mentioned are subjective]
Can you ever trust a cheater? Once a cheater, always a cheater?
Now it was understandable in most cases some of the pure hatred amongst the community against the revealed cheaters. As up until recently and still for the majority of the players the game was competitively played online only, and for someone like
h3 who has been caught now twice, and among one of the main Fusen targets there really can be no forgiveness. But as the tide of change engulfs competitive Enemy Territory, could the long held belief of once a cheater always a cheater be broken too ? I put forward some cases to warrant discussion.1:) The Past
Regardless of how you feel about
Hype / Kamz the fact remains, he was busted by Crossfire's very own TosspoT in RTCW, but as yet, after 2 years of competitive Enemy Territory in which his current clan #ovs-gaming nearly reached the pinnacle of Eurocup this season, and with there new lineup look in good stead to play in it next season, has yet to be busted. Now forgiveness is hard to come by in real life and even harder in the online arena, but the fact remains he is not a cheater anymore.2:)The Present
The 2nd and more compelling case is that of
mize who participated in the Netherlands triumph over Finland and Germany in Nations Cup to lead them to Nations Cup IX glory, and was actively part of the Angeldust side which took in last seasons Open Cup Premier and even more recently playing with mQ and cdap pi sides. Now I personally believe, and most likely the majority of people who played with/against him would believe that he hadn't hacked before the 3v3 incident.Now Enemy Territory has evolved to the point where players like mize, and those in the same boat (who are under a high amount of suspicion or have been caught), more LAN's can gift these players that 2nd chance which maybe they deserve, if a team will take the chance on them.
“h3 was busted cheating a while ago, but apparently that was a one time thing. I foolishly enough defended him” -TosspoT
If even the most venerable characters of ET such as Tosspot, can get it wrong, maybe the cheaters themselves, having seen the consequences admit they made a mistake, serve there bans and become legit once again. Can the likes of mize, Perfo, Nuggan, Unix, Razz, Wizzel, joonas,Torpso, danone, squall, foSt, vegi, and mAus become the pinnacle of new generation of players who compete both online and offline? I sure hope so, and given the relatively close locations of LAN events (
ShG Open and CPC2), if they are given the opportunity to do so, completely and undoubtedly clear there names once and for all! So noting what has been said and done, can you forgive a cheater who is willing to play on LAN to prove his worth ?Edit: Another interesting point which ive come across, given the relative slowness of which clanbase works at, would it not make sense to make sure it first and foremost ensures that its own matches are governed correctly/appropiately. Why does Clanbase have any say and the right to bad people whom cheat on a public server or do so in scrims which have nothing to do with clanbase, intriguing that the community somehow embraces this monopoly over our game.
[Players mentioned are subjective]
Mize for example, I've always found quite a nice guy, so would I find it easier to forgive him? Sure, he has at least been to me, polite and articulate.
Kamz on the other side, still today floods my bnc's and joins irc with my nick to try and take over channels. We (Crossfire) get an absolute tonne of complaints about him, considering we maybe get 1 complaint a day from one user about another user, we can often get 5/10 about kamz on just one day. And have given him many a chance to redeem himself.
You say at the bottom, its subjective, and you're 100% right until it comes to CB. As slow as they may be to react at times, they have a panel that dosent even play ET do the decisions on banning cheaters and that makes it objective, which is possibly the only way to do it.
BTW, its TosspoT, v. important :P
Imo once you have cheaten, you have shown that you have little or no respect of the game. I'm not sure how a cheater should be punished, but I am sure that I wouldn't want one in my clan, and I wouldn't be happy playing against a clan with an "ex-cheater"
present: mAus
Nobody of the mentioned guys will ever attend a lan by the way...
(why is vegi listed there?)
the majority of people? I really laughed.
And imo, cheaters should be banned for at least 2 years. Excuses like "i only cheated to quit ET" are stupid enough and i think they can't be accepted.
And another point to think about:
Can you ever trust a child abuser? Once a child abuser, always a child abuser?
Even if this questions may seam inappropiate in this context, there are many "ex child abuser" who continue to rape children. (Can't tell you the exact numbers of "ex child abuser" who relapse, but i've seen a documentation about this topic lately where a high percentage of recidivists has been told)
And honestly, I can't notice if someone really tries to become a clean player. The busted players can say they'll change, but after all you have no real proof that they are speaking honestly.
couldn't resist
I'm sorry to say that, but that arguement doesn't count for me. Even if a child raises up in a family that doesn't value moral as much as other families it gets confrontated with those values at the latest in school or in the kindergarten. But it's obvious that a bad education can catalyse the development to a child that has a wrong view on ethics and morals. Still that can't be seen as an excuse for misbehaviour.
With you next arguement you make a in my opinion false assumption: Someone who doesn't cheat at lan is not with 100% sureness a clean player online. There is still the possibility that the cheater "turned off" his bot/hax/illegal tweak or whatever. Thus, going to a lan isn't a proof for s.o. being a clean player. The skill difference between lan and online could be explained by the different settings @ lan for example - so you can't really track a cheater by his performance on lan and online
Saying that I "have no real proof about anyone who hasnt played at lan before" may be right but it doesn't affect the result. I am not talking about the players who has not got busted but I am talking about the players who got busted.
And a clearly busted player should be banned for, as i already mentioned in my first reply, at least 2 years. When they return after this period of time they have it in their own hands to change and play fair or to continue cheating. If the second case came true, any chance for them to continue playing competitively should be taken away, that means they should be banned for a lifetime.
Cheating is definetely no peccadillo.
But going one step back is more important. How do you treat clearly busted cheaters. And for me there is only one solution: if the person is banned for the first time a 2 years ban seems (at least for me) okay. This ban should include both online and offline tournaments. After this 2 years this person should be able to compete again. So the cheater receives a 2nd chance.
I know that this way of dealing with busted cheaters may seems harsh, but the ET community is ambitious and I guess most of us would like to see more offline events and more professionalism and thus it is necessary to show that cheaters have no right to exist in competitive events.
Then they have lost their chance to play in that game. AS i said before, I don't see cheating as a peccadillo and that's why i think such a ban is just fair and right.
Btw. I think we should end our discussion here, we both presented our point of views and i think we both won't change it.
Thx for the interesting arguements.
*cough* cZar *cough*
grats..
Wasnt Torpso subjected to the biggest cheat investigation in et history and one which can claim to the most replys/views in an article? One mans cheater is another mans mystic reborn :P
Think twice. Mize, foSt and AzA are probably the most accused 3on3 players to have ever played ET :P Skill is a gift and well I know that at least mize and AzA are gifted as good players. mize for example, i watched the cheater demo thoroughly and I saw he made a lot of dumb mistakes which he wouldnt do if he was an experienced cheater. He has played that whole day on ETTv etc (the day he got busted) and before that too ofc. AzA is another case, he is in my opinion the best aimer Holland has had, together with overboost and teKoa.
btw: where is
i didnt qualify with mQ for CPC 1 so i dont think why i should go to a lan which i didnt qualify for myself
think you are talking about the wrong perfo here
And about aza. He's definently a great aimer, no doubt about that. But playing with him a few matches with team nl, I got the opinion he's totally worthless in a 6v6 team.
Btw, who payed you for advertising these LANs ;P
"Hacking" implies an active involvement in circumventing something -- it requires intelligence.
"Cheating" means just what it says. It requires no knowledge or ability, often just a simple download.
It's like the analogy Eric S. Raymond makes, distinguishing "hacking" (in the computer hacking sense) from "cracking":
"Hackers create; crackers destroy."
This can easily be applied to gaming:
"Hackers create [game hacking programs]; cheaters destroy [the integrity of gaming]."
I was quite pleased when I discovered that the PunksBusted.com forums censor the word "hacker" and replace it with "cheater." :-)
Cheaters should not start with the idea that if they get caught they are forgiven and everybody will look at them the same way as before.
By paying your way to a LAN most likely in another country to get beaten by idle.ee in real life, seems more effort than your making it out to be :P
ClanBase only have power over their own leagues in that they, as oppose to some people's belief, they can't make some universal ban on any player, just ban them from their own leagues.
And, then they should be allowed to ban anyone they please, don't you think? Public or not.
they could even ban you or me for no reason, its still their business, other leagues dont have to follow, so thee's no monopoly. look at razz, onedaycup have let him play.
problem begins when all major leagues become to work together about bans. then they have to be careful
danone already booked his flight in december for the xfire lan in february?
then it got rescheduled to april?
and now he got kicked lol
I'm growing more and more impatient with ClanBase antiquated system for dealing with cheaters, it's akin to taking everyone who has committed a crime to the police chief. Players like mize are still playing, why has he not been banned yet? Whether it was just once, in a 3v3, or <insert random reason here>, the fact is that he cheated and he should pay the price for that.
If only this community had the balls to boycott ClanBase and other competitions which clearly aren't taking the actions that are required.
p.s. back from teh club
This statement is flawed. Note that I have no idea who this person is, nor am I aware of his achievements. I'll take you at your word that he is a great player with a great record. I'm not singling this person out; my point is that the above statement cannot be safely applied to anyone.
The statement should have read:
"...the fact remains [Hype / Kamz] has achieved much, apparently without cheating."
Even a player who has proved themselves on LAN might very well cheat at other times, for whatever reason. In other words: you can be a great player and still be a cheater.
The question is therefore: "if you cheat under any circumstances, does it nullify your legitimate achievements?"
That's a question each person has to answer for themselves.
if u take anything that will make u jump higher, run faster etc... and u get busted with a positive test. u will become banned for 2 years.
the top players get tested the whole year. in germany u have to tell the nada (national anti doping agenture) your current location every day.
in et we should follow the same statutes.
the cheaters should have no possibility to get used to play with the cheats.
and when they get busted 2 years ban
and in et we are not talking about the little 14 years old boy who just plays public and buyed/found a bot just to have some "fun" . no. we are talking about players who participate in competition.
by joining theese competitions u have to accept the rules of the league/cup. so u know that cheating is not allowed, even no little helping stuff like dynotimer.
the next point is that all say: does cb has the right to ban public cheaters??
so lets say you run a supermarket. and you hear of a guy that has stolen on other stores. you can tell him that he is not allowed to come to your shop because its your shop. same case with cb. its their leagues and cups.
last thing:
when u say: I/he only played public with cheats.
why you think was punkbuster enabled on this server?
it was enabled because they dont want cheaters there.
" CuttyP on 21/01/07, 01:12:36
Everyone who uses a cheat knows the consequences if he gets busted. 2 years ban are appropriate. "
indeed!
Forgiveness?
2. and also dont say that clanbase shouldnt ban someone who cheated in other league/ffa/scrim...
3. monopoly would be if clanbase constrain other leagues to ban ppl who are banned at clanbase.
4. and its their business, who they want to ban and who not to
they still can come to lan, say tha they felt pressure so they played bad, or just had worse period in et n stuff, and actually I would believe most of them.
and i like lord of the rings too.