So I saw these NC playoff brackets and they're terrible. Hentai picked some stupid thing where matches are completely random and rounds won and lost are not even considered for the structure of the bracket. Hentai picked something like "#1 team in group 1 plays #2 team in group 8, #1 team in group 2 plays #2 team in group 7" etc.
For a single elimination tournament this format is garbage. The best 3 teams don't have a good chance of wining gold, silver bronze because brackets are just random and the 2 best teams could play each other early on. If it was double elimination this format wouldn't be so bad and I wouldn't care.
So I spent 15 minutes making up a bracket that makes sense and actually takes into consideration rounds won and lost. Here is what I came up with.
1
Germany 12-0
2
Hungary 12-2
2
UK 12-2
4
Belgium 12-2 (1)
4
Finland 12-2 (1)
4
Poland 12-2 (1)
7
Chile 12-4 (1)
8
Russia 10-4 (1)
9
Czech 10-4
10
Japan 10-4 (1)
10
USA 10-4 (1)
12
Sweden 10-6 (1)
13
NL 8-0 (1) [1]
14
Swiss 8-4
15
Malta 8-4(2)
16
Australia 7-5
Parenthesis show forfeit wins, brackets show forfeit losses. I gave 4-0 for teams with forfeit wins. If teams are tied in rounds won and lost, I gave the advantage to teams without any forfeit wins because their matches were actually played. I assumed Czech wins 4-0 on Sunday just to make it easier right now.
So the bracket would end up being #1 vs #16 in the top of the bracket. #2 vs #15 in the bottom of the bracket. Normal bracket structure. It would have to be randomly chosen who is #2 out of Hungary and UK and the same thing with all the other ties. I have no idea what hentai is going to make the bracket look like right now. He posted all the matches but who plays who after each match? I have no idea.
I think it's pretty ridiculous to tell everyone what the playoff structure is before playoffs start if it's something this random. If the playoff structure isn't given, then shouldn't we all assume it's going to be based on you're record including rounds won and lost? I guess not. Why the fuck would hentai not make the brackets till he sees who is already making playoffs and can just decide who is playing everyone...RANDOMLY.
The matches hentai made are bullshit. Why it took 5 days to make some random stupid matches is beyond my comprehension. I guess he was too busy watching anime porn. Either make it double elimination or fucking change the bracket.
I hope some people agree with me.
For a single elimination tournament this format is garbage. The best 3 teams don't have a good chance of wining gold, silver bronze because brackets are just random and the 2 best teams could play each other early on. If it was double elimination this format wouldn't be so bad and I wouldn't care.
So I spent 15 minutes making up a bracket that makes sense and actually takes into consideration rounds won and lost. Here is what I came up with.
1
Germany 12-02
Hungary 12-22
UK 12-24
Belgium 12-2 (1)4
Finland 12-2 (1)4
Poland 12-2 (1)7
Chile 12-4 (1)8
Russia 10-4 (1)9
Czech 10-410
Japan 10-4 (1)10
USA 10-4 (1)12
Sweden 10-6 (1)13
NL 8-0 (1) [1]14
Swiss 8-4 15
Malta 8-4(2)16
Australia 7-5Parenthesis show forfeit wins, brackets show forfeit losses. I gave 4-0 for teams with forfeit wins. If teams are tied in rounds won and lost, I gave the advantage to teams without any forfeit wins because their matches were actually played. I assumed Czech wins 4-0 on Sunday just to make it easier right now.
So the bracket would end up being #1 vs #16 in the top of the bracket. #2 vs #15 in the bottom of the bracket. Normal bracket structure. It would have to be randomly chosen who is #2 out of Hungary and UK and the same thing with all the other ties. I have no idea what hentai is going to make the bracket look like right now. He posted all the matches but who plays who after each match? I have no idea.
I think it's pretty ridiculous to tell everyone what the playoff structure is before playoffs start if it's something this random. If the playoff structure isn't given, then shouldn't we all assume it's going to be based on you're record including rounds won and lost? I guess not. Why the fuck would hentai not make the brackets till he sees who is already making playoffs and can just decide who is playing everyone...RANDOMLY.
The matches hentai made are bullshit. Why it took 5 days to make some random stupid matches is beyond my comprehension. I guess he was too busy watching anime porn. Either make it double elimination or fucking change the bracket.
I hope some people agree with me.
16 Australia
8 Russia
9 Czech
4 Belgium/Finland/Poland
13 NL
5 Belgium/Finland/Poland
12 Sweden
3 Hungary/UK
14 Swistzerland
6 Belgium/Finland/Poland
11 Japan/USA
7 Chile
10 Japan/USA
2 Hungary/UK
15 Malta
Randomly choose who wins the ties by flipping coin or whatever.
With his format it means that it is impossible for any team to meet the other qualifier from their group until the final which, tell me im wrong, but is the same kind of format as the Football Worldcup etc. If it works for them, why cant it for this...
With your format you base it on rounds won and take no consideration for their placings in their group etc.
but hey it's your cup, and we accepted your rules by joining so no beef.
The brackets were changed, but we switched it around because it made more sense to do it how it's done now. Was for the better long term results, despite minor short term consequences.
At least you have the decency to speak without flaming like a retard, thanks for that.
your "brackets" aren't
Your solution doesn't really make any sense and if you want 2 best teams to meet in the final, double elimination needs to be used.
If you really want the best 2 teams to get to the final, you should ask the admins to use double elimination, not that piece of shit of yours. However, I believe that the only reason for which you wrote that is the fear of getting steamrolled by Germany in the first round :-)
That is the whole point of me making this fucking bracket. To make sure teams that are better get better seeds. If only you weren't blinded by your anti non-european incompetence, you would actual listen to what I'm saying. I do agree though that double elimination would fix the problem instantly and I wouldn't care at all. It would add a lot more matches but it would only be 2 weeks longer.
Loser bracket finals are retarded, if you lose you lose, neck up and take it (just like losing a map, no second chances).
Having it the way it is forces teams to make less mistakes and play at a overall higher level (better for ettv viewers). With a loser bracket a "stronger" team can take it easy in the knowledge that even if they lose they can still cruise into the final.
What you don't seem to understand that your seeds don't have much to do with the actual skill of the teams, hence, everything that you wrote above is worthless. Let me reiterate it for you. Some groups are obviously easier than others and getting a better round difference might be easier for team A even if it's worse than team B - if you take a closer look that actually happened. The way you take forfeits into consideration puts teams at a disadvantage - I'm pretty sure Belgium would've beaten Isreal without losing a map but just because Jews didn't show up they get the worse seed. The last point - if you truly want a balanced bracket, where 2 best teams get the chance to meet in the final, putting Malta, Chile, Japan, USA, Switzerland, Hungary and UK in the same side of the bracket surely doesn't help...
This is what I'm talking about when you, and a lot of other euros, immediately assume that teams outside of Europe are bad without knowing anything about the teams. This is why using data to determine who should play who is better than any sort of human judgment.
You said the thing about Belgium not getting full credit under my system for a forfeit against Israel. Obviously Belgium would've won that match, but let's look at Chile vs Netherlands. So Chile's win should be just as good as anyone elses? Obviously not because Chile is garbage (Fuck you nozz) and they would never take a round on NL (I'm half dutch so I can go for 1 euro team).
wow
but as you clearly like your play off bracket idea so much I will comment on it to appease you ego.
It has potential but would render any tournament using it boring and predictable. It would seem your love affair with mathematical logic dulled your sense of creativity and overall connection with what "just works".
Hentai's system is proven and creates excitement within tournaments.
I understand it is your birth right as an US citizen to feel you are right but please take the time to review your indiscretions and be at peace with what is and will continue to be.
thats quality :DDD
If you still can't comprehend then you better quit the internet.
I really don't care who wins or whatnot but vader has a point and you are too dumb to understand it.
You keep arguing that rounds won don't matter if you don't win the match because some teams have way easier matches or harder matches to play. Isn't that the point of choosing the groups the way they did? So everyone's schedule is as even as possible? If that is the case then rounds won have some meaning to them. Even if it's not the case rounds won are still better than no extra rounds won. I just don't understand why you guys don't think rewarding teams for winning more rounds is terrible compared to just randomly seeding 1 group winner with a 2nd place group team. Stop hanging on to what you are used to and just think of what I'm saying.
Because the best teams have to actually play each other to see who is better? Kind of makes sense to me.
Maybe if we all spoke the same language all the time I wouldn't have to explain this over and over again. Let's please all switch to Latin someday ok?
lulz
wut?
Out of what do you conclude this? It's not because most Americans don't like European people that European people are "anti non-european"...
stereotypical american
faggot is such a cool and original insult, did you make it up yourself?
Second, there is nothing random about the tournament system. It is just as similar to the CB system. (or any other legit tournament organizer, CDC''s for example)
The performance of groups should seriously not be considered as you do not take into the account that some teams had forfeit wins, others had very easy teams and had played very strong opponents. It is simply an unfair measure, and second...admins should not interfere in how groups are placed just to get the best 2 to miss each other in the semis.
Giving 4-0 forfeit wins is something arbitrary that you did, but if you should have done this fairly, then you should have take the average match score to resemble the pool of games. This is not good.
The same shit happens at the European Championship, where it is even more random, but that makes such tournaments exciting as well.
You simply don't alter a tournament system to ensure the best teams do not meet each other in the playoffs. There needs to be a fair and unbiased system put in place and that system needs to be put into place prior to the group stage. You simply cannot change it half-way to compensate for the best possible teams.
I actually gave them the play off bracket and this is the most standard playoff bracket when you have 16 teams advance out of 8 groups. It is totally standard that A will meet H etc. (normally by seeding teams in the groups properly the playoff bracket will allow the top teams to miss each other until the finals though).
I assume the admins made a list of seeds before the start of the groups stage, but i can also perfectly understand if they didn't based on the fact that it was very hard to predict the strengths of teams. Or, the other very good reason is that admins do not want to be biased and control the outcome of the tournament and put the most fair and standard P/o system into place.
So, IF some sorting should have been done, it should have been done in the group stage so that the the following would be done:
Group A would have had the Nr1 and Nr16 seed + two other teams in there.
Group H would have had the Nr2 and Nr15 seed...
So if all goes to plan, then the first playoff round, would look good as well, namely:
Nr 1 vs Nr15
...(other games)
...
...
...
...
...
and Nr2 vs Nr16
You see the resemblance with the current P/O system?
It is exactly the same as you are proposing...q.e.d
there is nothing random about the tournament system. It is just as similar to the CB system.
:> but nevertheless you're right :P
But in essence, every online tourney organizer uses this system.
I think someone said it earlier. In North America, in all sports, all online games, we do it the way I said. I guess you guys do it with group stages and then the A1 vs D2 or whatever. I know all big gaming tourneys, European or not, have double elimination which eliminates the stupidity of the format.
I just don't see any reason why it's done this way unless teams are placed in groups to try and perfectly get a good bracket with the A1 vs D2 shit. That's dumb to me. Let the teams fucking play, whoever plays better deserves a better chance at getting to the finals.
One thing I don't understand is why everyone says that "teams that are in the same groups can't play each other in playoffs." What does that fucking matter?
Trial and error :P
although I must say that the tournament admins are arguing against them having made any mistakes so probably they wont actually change anything =P
I also agree that double elimination is the BEST way to determine which team is the BEST. If you're not going to use double elimination then Vader's brackets make more sense than Hentai's.
kot's clearly pointed out the flaws in the system proposed so there be no reason to reiterate... 'n as I said above - NCs are notoriously difficult to maintain interest, 'n a double elim bracket extends the tournament massively.
Vaders bracket certainly doesn't [if using single elim] - as it doesn't take into account difficulty of groups. They're both flawed [in that neither guarantees the best team wins] - but then what cup layout does? Only a league could show that...
Neither are perfect - the Crossfire way be fairer.
3 matches isn't enough to generate any worthwhile 'data'.
In theory, if you could travel in time and know the eventuall winner without knowing their path then you should be able to put that team in any group stage and determine the elimination rounds in any way/order you want and they would still win......in theory.
Now there are always flaws, some teams may progress further than others by a round or so,a win may have been conceded by a forfeit or an unlucky TK or server lag etc etc etc. These may not have happened had that team been in a dofferent group blah blah, but that is the nature of the beast. No matter how you arrange it it is flawed.
Replacing one flawed system for another equally flawed system because it's new is not progress, it's pointless.
I understand perfectly what you be saying - it be you that aint reading what I'm... I understand vaders bracket gives a pseudo facade of fairness. But you're not accepting the simple fact that some groups are easier than others. Ergo taking rounds won be irrelevant. The opinion comes before the playoffs - in creating the groups.
In the system that's currently being used, teams arent sorted by opinion but randomly into groups, therefore one group can turn out way more difficult to top than another. Using Vader's system that would mean that the playoffs drawings will be utterly unfair.
Using hentai's system, it wont be.
For single elimination with random group drawings this is simply the best way to go about, if you either dont understand or come back to me with your standard "OPINION OVER DATA" reply (which is ridiculous in the first place seeing as three matches played can hardly be called proper data) you just have the brainfunctions of a 4 y/o
The brackets are done like the WC, not like the NBA.
It's a standard format so u know before the tournament starts what to expect.
If u would do it on Vader's way u would have lot's of whine and discussion about the seedings. (forfait wins, cointoss to decide??, etc...)
They would have to use a cointoss to decide Bel/UK/Pol places??? How is that fair?? And the teams who would be disadvantages can say that it's fixed and stuff?
Just quit te crap/whine before it happens and just stick with this format. U know the format before the tournament so nobody can complain.