In the ever growing world of multi-gaming organizations and the general expansion of the eSports market, the internet seems to have become inundated with people moving into the management side of things for numerous reasons and motives. Sure, intentions can be good and for most of the time, they contribute heavily in some way into helping players get to LAN destinations in relative comfort and safety but really, when it comes down to it, are they really worth it?
We’ve all seem them in some shape or form; it’s hard to not notice them. Some like to keep themselves as bit players in the grand scheme, staying well away from the public eye. Others prefer a more involved and lucrative role but whatever the approach and strategy of a manager may be, the job description if pretty much the same however big the represented organization is/was.
For a long time I’ve felt the position is a redundant one, especially when relating mangers to ET. It just seems to be a platform for players/people to mingle within a scene they wouldn’t normally have access too, just to get a little bit of notoriety by association. Don’t get me wrong, it’s unfair to condemn all managers into the same category when clearly, a lot of good work can be done from the role but with it becoming increasingly easier to climb the eSports organizational ladder, it’s created a treacherous minefield to navigate through, when considering who and what to ask help from.
With bigger promises of cash and support coming from an ever varied range of sources and backers, more and more players are finding themselves victims of false premises and losing out in the long run. I wouldn’t necessarily blame the players for making the wrong choices, that’s unfair. It’s hard not to be lured by a free-ride when money for such activities is usually a scarce and precious amenity.
You could give numerous examples of how managers have done good and bad in online gaming but be careful what how you categorize these people. Within our tight knit community there have been a few cases so far, with well known managers from the Estonian and UK scene being implicated in some form or another. In both cases prize money still has not been distributed or received, with players out of pocket as a consequence.
There can be a significant difference between someone who runs an organization and someone who works for one, with both having access to the purse strings in which many a trip is based upon.
Here’s my point. Like everything in life, anything involving money can be hit or miss. No matter how big people may claim to be or how much influence they may wield within a certain sector, parting money from a potential sponsors hand is hard for anyone, so giving anything back to the players that so desperately need it can be daunting and perilous task with little fruition in some cases. With more and more people looking to attend Crossfire LAN events, pursuing financial support is becoming more of the norm rather than the exception, the number of cases involving “bad management” is on the up, with happy endings coming few and far between.
So I guess the point of my column is more of a warning or plea rather than a method to spark debate on the issue at hand. Anyone looking to milk the cash cow that comes in the form of an eSports organization and more importantly, the manager/mangers that will represent them, be warned. You may receive a big fat novelty check if you are lucky enough to perform well at a LAN event but be wary that the novelty check isn’t the only thing you go home with, if you were originally promised so much more.
We’ve all seem them in some shape or form; it’s hard to not notice them. Some like to keep themselves as bit players in the grand scheme, staying well away from the public eye. Others prefer a more involved and lucrative role but whatever the approach and strategy of a manager may be, the job description if pretty much the same however big the represented organization is/was.
For a long time I’ve felt the position is a redundant one, especially when relating mangers to ET. It just seems to be a platform for players/people to mingle within a scene they wouldn’t normally have access too, just to get a little bit of notoriety by association. Don’t get me wrong, it’s unfair to condemn all managers into the same category when clearly, a lot of good work can be done from the role but with it becoming increasingly easier to climb the eSports organizational ladder, it’s created a treacherous minefield to navigate through, when considering who and what to ask help from.
With bigger promises of cash and support coming from an ever varied range of sources and backers, more and more players are finding themselves victims of false premises and losing out in the long run. I wouldn’t necessarily blame the players for making the wrong choices, that’s unfair. It’s hard not to be lured by a free-ride when money for such activities is usually a scarce and precious amenity.
You could give numerous examples of how managers have done good and bad in online gaming but be careful what how you categorize these people. Within our tight knit community there have been a few cases so far, with well known managers from the Estonian and UK scene being implicated in some form or another. In both cases prize money still has not been distributed or received, with players out of pocket as a consequence.
There can be a significant difference between someone who runs an organization and someone who works for one, with both having access to the purse strings in which many a trip is based upon.
Here’s my point. Like everything in life, anything involving money can be hit or miss. No matter how big people may claim to be or how much influence they may wield within a certain sector, parting money from a potential sponsors hand is hard for anyone, so giving anything back to the players that so desperately need it can be daunting and perilous task with little fruition in some cases. With more and more people looking to attend Crossfire LAN events, pursuing financial support is becoming more of the norm rather than the exception, the number of cases involving “bad management” is on the up, with happy endings coming few and far between.
So I guess the point of my column is more of a warning or plea rather than a method to spark debate on the issue at hand. Anyone looking to milk the cash cow that comes in the form of an eSports organization and more importantly, the manager/mangers that will represent them, be warned. You may receive a big fat novelty check if you are lucky enough to perform well at a LAN event but be wary that the novelty check isn’t the only thing you go home with, if you were originally promised so much more.
My motto in almost every aspect of life: Never hire anybody to do what you can do yourself. Anybody can do anything with a little elbow grease.
Just to defend the managers and also to bring some information to the column, my task when being a manager has always been to make the life as easy for the team and players as possible. Now for the past year (almost), I have been manager for a team which has participated in two offline tournaments. At the events I have been sort of a coach to the team, since I have some experience myself, and also been the manager; trying to make the players focus on playing the game and nothing else.
Now you might ask, why don't you play yourself Arachon? Well, I am getting older, my reactions are not as good as they used to be. I don't think I will be able to play at the top level and attend LANs. So, why not share some of my experience with other players and also get a kick out of it, as being a part of a team? I must say at The eXperience 2008, I have never been as nervous about matches, as I have ever been. Standing behind the guys, which I know personally and care about, and not being able to influence the game, except for a little word now and then.
In my opinion a manager in eSport is suppose to:
- Make the life as easy as possible to the players in the team (overall idea).
- Make sure the financial support is there for the team.
- Give a point of view in how the team is playing; what can be changed etc.
- Support the team at tournaments (cheering and also tactical).
- Make sure that the only thing the players have to think about, is to play the game.
Those 5 points you gave sounds good when you read it but it is in fact just pure managerial talk and/or bullshit if you analyze it. (not in real life cases maybe but it is in e-sports in 90% of the times)
- "Make sure the only things the players have to think about, is to play the game".
Plz, like u can't do anything else besides playing? Most of the people are more drinking and doing funny stuff on a LAN then being concentrated on their next game so if they can do that they can also do other stuff that the manager is supposed to do.
- "Support the team at tournaments"
Come on, like grown up people need a person to hold their hand because without his support they wouldn't be as confident blablabla, this is just bullshit imo. Teammembers know what to do, who cares about a manager who "supports" them. And during games u can't talk because they are concentrated on the game.
- "Give a point of view in how the team is playing"
Well, this is again pure managerial talk and sounds good but it is fact as hollow and empty as it can be. If you got a whole team of pro's who play with each other every day and created instincts and feelings in how to play with each other, what on earth does a manager know that the members of the team don't know yet? Maybe in your case yes because you played competitively and even then...
- "Make sure the financial support is there for the team"
I'll give you this one.
I understand your answer from your point of view. You are a manager and you defend your "job" and want to feel useful to the team but in most cases (in e-sports at least) a manager is not necessary. Yes, for the financial support maybe but the teammembers (captain?) can do that too imo, it's not such a big deal.
For teams who go to quakecon and stuff, a manager can be good yes but that's it.
Well I would agree with you, if the team was playing ET. I am sorry to say, but CoD is a bit more professional, in the way that most teams are at LANs to win and not just to party with the others; of course the partying is there, but the gaming is the most important.
Have you ever been at any crossfire events? If you haven't I can tell you that CoD players are a lot more vocal than ET players. This is because of the round based system, it gives you the oppertunity to cheer after a won or lost round; both to get the adrenaline and moral going and might intimidate the opponents.
Hehe, well, I kind of agree with you. It just nice sometimes to get input from somewhere else after a match, also because a person standing behind a team is able to spectate every player.
Furthermore, being a manager does not require from you to play 4hrs per day. You do not need to be online everyday to be a good manager. Also, pay attention on the fact that nowadays doing manager job requires a lot of other skills- eg. writing ones. If you want to make sure that players can focus on their praccs, crossfire trends requires you to write any team's presentations.
In other words, you're saying that managers in general are wannabes who can 'exist' on high level thanks to manager function. Some of crossfire admins can exist there as well thanks to their function as well ;). Anyway, what's the point of such statement? Showing that people who are closed to high skilled teams does not deserve to be in "high-skilled-community"? I doubt managers think in categories of such adherence. They're just doing their job.
What is more, thanks to development in managerial sections, many people actually are still involved in eSports.
E: Watch pedro's reply.
Like I said in the column, the piece is more of a warning to the XF members, rather than an attack on managers within our community. I do personally feel hate the position of a manager but that's just my personal feelings, it doesn't mean they don't do good work for themselves and for whomever they may represent.
It's good people like yourself and Arachon show how much work you have done/do in your respective managerial roles. It shows what people should be looking for when joining up with some sort of MG organization.
If you want to warn ET players, tell them to ask for contracts, cause anything else you say is just situation-based. One mgc or manager might be fair and give out money while another won't, and knowing that won't prevent another one of those bad results from happening. Signing contracts give players and mgc's certainty.
Although the problem remains of false promises before the lans. It's something that can't really be put in contracts. Merely a "we will try to bring the players to the lan and cover the most costs possible" which comes down to "we will do our best", which doesn't bind them to any promises.
FatGames promised the current impact team to bring them to lan and cover their expenses, but due to the financial crisis, the funds weren't there. As the manager back then I couldn't do anything to make the funds come true, and disappointed the whole team.
If you mean that players have to be cautious for these kind of deals, then I agree fully with you.
The main point is that it gives certainty and credibility, it's a lot better than nothing.
I secede to the higher knowledge!
i know what happened to FG but i won't elaborate on it to much but i can imagine how they feel...
Nice to know it's a different story though ;)
run the rumour mill!!!
be adventurous!
x
I mean, i'm not involved into all that elite-ET-scene stuff and I always see ppl giving hints about who owes money to whom and which LAN didn't pay out and so on...
ppl are always bitching but never tell names....
now you come across and say auuuuh take care of the managers, some are fishy but i'm not gonna tell you who...
bring some facts and/or gossip, this kind of 'i know something but i won't tell' journalism really pisses me off and looks to me like an inside joke for the established community of attendees of the cf LANs :/
I mean... nice read, and certainly a good idea for a column, but I don't get any new knowledge out of this....
:S
The point you make is of course alarming, I can think of 2/3 examples of people who have won at Crossfire events and come to me asking for their money some months later and I say, oh manager X has it, to which the reply is usually along the lines of 'WTF'. Now in these examples, manager X has usually paid for something that entitles him to the first share of the money, but still its a difficult situation.
Nice read, BIG PHIL4LIFE
No doubt managers had a hand in this in terms of attraction - better managers will attract better teams - but what effect did these managers have on the progression of the MGC compared to the teams playing for them?
You mention millions, where the fuck are those millions coming from? I think lansupport is pretty normal + extra's like tshirts, hardware and stuff and maybe a bit money (not a whole month salary tho)
Having banners of them on your page, wearing their logos everywhere on shirts, writing specific PR news for them on your page, doing PR events like shootouts or simply being present on the booth at some hardware fair and of course using their hardware at LANs so ppl take pictures of it.
It's only worth doing that if the team or the player that uses the hardware or represents your company is actually well respected and/or extremely good. Especially in CS there's a big hype about ppl buying the same stuff the players use. There are even fan clubs just for certain clans, traveling at different events just to support them. And about the banners, it's obviously only worth doing that when the site get thousands of clicks per day.
The sponsors of the big clans simply pay a lot more than those few thousands euros going to some LAN once or twice a year, or giving out a mousepad and a t-shirt. Players get quite good salaries, managers get salaries, the whole clan gets shitloads of money just for representing their company in eSports. This is not working with ET etc though. You gotta have CS (1.6, not source) and probably a quite succesfull wc3 and/or fifa team. Also CoD4 attracted a few sponsors in the early days of it, I'm pretty sure though they vanished again.
It's pretty much the same in other sports or events getting sponsored.
(Ah and yes, most clans take a few % off the winnings)
You have been in an semi-professional clan right? (talking about dignitas)
And well, about dignitas. It actually is a professional clan I'd say, atleast I guess some teams there might receive salaries, even newsposters do. I prefer my current clan over dignitas though :-)
And mamut.si is pretty new right, cause i never heard of it before the etqw team..
enjoyed reading :)
If i was a professional gamer, i would finish my school first! What if the game dies, how old is CS actually? You can't be a professional gamer whole your life, or am i wrong?
And SK, when did they start with this? (you are saying they are worth millions). And i know that ET won't make it so far as CS and never could.
Okay , you have sponsors and you get 100k each year, you have many LAN events and teams. How much would it costs for 1 event with 1 team?
job as a gamer would be nice, but what about your social life: sport,school, rl friends :( I dont want to give up all this for gaming :P
I visited the crossfire challenges for 2 times in a row now, cant wait for cc6. Great fun with guys you met on the inet and its only getting more social if you just stay with the team for a year, you talk about everything by then :D
> That depends on different factors, for example on the location (Europe, America, ...), the players (CS = 5 players, WC3 = 1 player) and your distributable budget.
As a group we joined TLR with the promise of a fully supported trip to the event as part of the TLR organisation. Even simply weeks before the LAN as flight prices were increasing TLR management were still promising to pick up the costs for all the flights. With I think maybe a week to go we were told that we simply were not going to get any funding from TLR, they had entry and the cabins covered from their sponsorship with wzzrd who were partnered with crossfire. This left us in a very difficult position. Ferus and Night both had to catch flights that cost the best part of €700. Matias and Iron had both booked flights earlier which cost €100 each. Sheep had transferred money to my account to book his flights as he would be travelling with me and sqzz. Now we were in a situation where currently the team could not go to LAN, the funding was not there. I felt responsible as the teams Manager and I therefore “came to the rescue” and although I could not really afford it at the time I booked the flights for them. I also then booked a large hire car so that I could transport the likes of myself sheep ferus and a couple of others from the airport to the event and back, some €250 roughly. Bulldog had the other hire car to transport the rest of the people we met in convoy, namely unkind. Now when booking mine and sheep’s flights the prices had gone up marginally, about 30 or so Euros, sheep said simply, “well I have paid enough” so I picked up those costs as well. I also picked up the full flight costs for sqzz since he had no finances either despite it supposed to being the whole of unkind that covered his costs but anyway again that’s another story and not really Impact’s problem. I also drove sheep sqzz and I to the airport and parked my car in airport parking for a few days, again more money, petrol and airport parking costs. At the other end I had costs for Diesel for the hire car, maybe another 30-40 euros. So although I couldn’t really afford to be paying for all this I did because it was required to get the team to the LAN. And let’s be honest I took a huge risk with my money which I didn’t really have, credit cards etc , we had no guarantees of winning, in fact it was very unexpected since Amenti were by far the favoured team, everyone can do the math and work out what costs I paid there out of my own pocket and we received first place prize money of €1500. Now toxic was promised the qpad money from the tourney we won to pay for his trip, I think he is still waiting to get paid that from crossfire. Night and ferus would not be seeing any money since they had their trips paid by me. So that left sheep matias and iron who still had expenses to recover. I received the finances in July for the trip, obviously I quickly had to pay off all of my costs, how much does that leave ... not a lot and certainly not what matias and co thought they were owed since they were looking at covering their expenses and then still receiving further prize money, I think they only wanted me originally to get 600 euros back, this was a sticking point which we had to get past. Bottom line I was not supposed to be the sponsor and therefore I wanted my costs back. This leaves probably a lot less but I have agreed on 500 euros. We argued for a while over how much people should be getting, well specifically matias and iron argued. Unfortunately then something happened which I could not predict, I lost my job, my company had gone into administration (the shit financial times we are in) and I had not even received my salary, (I’m still owed some £2000 from my previous company which I doubt to ever get from the administrators) and so for the last 3 months I have been without work and I have tried to explain this to matias and iron (I think maybe iron understand the situation better than matias) and I have said all along that I will get them their money they just need to give me some time. I said to them, hang on guys I came to support you when all of you were in the shit so how about being fair to me now and just giving me a bit of time to get you your money, yesterday I received the contract for my new job and I spoke to iron and had a long chat and despite all the bitching and accusations of money stealing that matias seems to be spreading I said I to this day promise that they will get their money. So there you go that’s the story for all who wished to know it. Life sometimes throws you curve balls that no one can plan or expect for.
I think hopefully some who are mature enough might think hey he didn’t have to but he came to the teams aid when they needed it how about they cut him some slack now, others wont see it that way but thats the story.
EDIT
Lets also be clear on something else, i have never made any money out of ET, i fully paid Impact's trip to CDC2 and lost money on that, i paid the prize money for ET Masters season I out of my own pocket and i will do again for season II just as i will pay matias and co their money, i have given plenty of funding of my own to try my best to help the community
u did well,gl in future
If it's the truth, u did nothing wrong imo.
Anyways my apologies to Tosspot who earlier got my short-tempered wrong accusations concerning this case.
Prior to this explanation I might have been leery of financial dealings with him but now it would seem (if what he says is true) his actions seemed to have been more noble than shady.
gl with your new job.
Nice bringing your side to the public, I guess no one should have anything to whine or flame about it anymore.
And going to lans thinking only in the money that doesnt make any sense at least in ET at the moment..
but it's true that contract would've been nice and it's recommended for everyone.
From what you've said it looks to me like you've simply used Matias's and Iron's share of the prize money to fund Night's and Ferus's trips? If this IS the case it definitely doesn't look very fair and Matias and Iron have every right to be bitter and want the money they deserve (again, I don't know what was agreed with the prize money before the trip so apologies if I'm not making any sense).
While it's all very upsetting hearing about your job loss etc, it's not really that relevant, the fact is you owe them money. You took that financial risk when you paid for all that stuff (and I admire that) so you should have to pay for it now that the shit's hit the fan, not them.
Finally, as most people will agree, it's ultimately TLR's fault, but I personally think it was a bit stupid to keep believing their promises, letting the situation get to where it was.
I hope everything gets resolved, and good luck with your new job
You're not making any sense, in any squad there will always be people who cost a lot more to send to lan than others, toxic alone cost the same amount to send to cc5 as every other player in the squad combined, that being said the way i have always worked prize money is that everyone gets their expenses back first, no one is travelling first class, everyone is going by the cheapest means possible, whatever is left after everyone gets their expenses back can be split as prize money, far fairer way of doing it.
Yes i did take the financial risk but so did they, i was never supposed to be the sponsor, we all took financial risks before going to LAN.
I'm sure everything will get resolved yes.
Out of interest did Iron and Matias actually get their expenses back? Or are the expenses included in the money they're owed?
I thought you said you paid for Night and Ferus? What financial risk did they take?
I totally disagree. We took no risk, because we knew we'll be top3 in every single case (top2 most likely)
poor gangsta
Then you've done a poor job. Mr. Galahad, for example, made almost millions :D
The guy who did the ET money column a few years ago, with Night in clear first!
Gl evo your doing a gr8 job
As a side note. I personally think if everyone dealt with and explained things like evo here, the ET scene would be a whole lot cleaner, without all the bitching and lying etc. several reputations have come into disrepute in this instance over what? Bad communication and a lack of clarity. This I think is no ones fault in particular but merely by the way everything is conducted with mirc logs and msn conversations as a basis of evidence and agreements. LOLOLOL.
This maybe a symptom of or a cause of the current gaming climate and going back to point allows corrupt manager and other alike to prosper.
Some professionalism and clarity is what is needed. Simple contracts between both parties, if not legally binding, at least gives you assurances of understanding by all parties, and if all else fails proper mud to sling.
but I still think its pretty obvious, the MGC was the major letdown here - eVo did what he could to salvage the teams travel costs. Read my post below for full rantlike behaviours :D
if you give some cut to the manager as he's been doing something, still it doesn't mean that the manager should get the prizemoney to share, because it's a bit risky. the leader should get it. surely if a manager makes really, really awesome job he'll get some. I've seen a real manager in ET once. it was eVo @ CPC2. never seen anything similar. some ex dignitas players could tell more, but afaik Frop did also good job (not totally sure though)
if players don't want to give anything to the manager afterwards, that's his problem. that's being a manager in ET. it's totally his risk, NOT PLAYERS'
Didn't you read what he paid for you guys because TLR didnt pay out the lansupport?
damn
fag
I read both - and really in either situation if you got the prize money or eVo did, someone would have been fucked over.
You are diverting your problem in the wrong direction - here the manager actually saved you and financed you to the LAN - I'm sure this was made clear to you and the team that your MGC decided not to fund your travel at all.
The risk was his, it was not a certainty you would place let alone win - a turn of events after the LAN have made this difficult perhaps in terms of receiving moneys but this is life.
It seems to me the only reason you went to LAN in the end was because you had a manager.
In that time I remember myself saying, that someone should book the flights before they're getting more and more expensive. nothing happened so the price doubled or so. just saying. eVo built the team to play for TLR because it was "trustworthy" mgc as we saw.
would've not been the first time in ET history to skip the lan because of lack of support. of course it's great we made it at the end. it's not basically about the amounts of money, just principles and how all this turned out.
If a lan needs to be booked, the managers need to do all the work and the players can just print their tickets, take the plane, stay in a hotel which is booked for them, and just play some games and have fun. The players don't have any responsibility whatsoever.
Managers should of course be able to take credit for a winning team, since the best teams ask the most from an mgc, and if a manager can make everything happen so that a team can perform well on lans, that gives the manager a lot credit.
Like Tosspot is saying, managers also run a business, take in sponsors, make a company run well. It is just like any other small business. Why do you think managers get the biggest wages in companies? Cause they have the most responsibility. If they fuck up something, a lot goes south, and that goes for mgc's too, if a manager forgets to book a flight of a player, the team can't even compete.
I've been a manager for FatGames for a 1,5 years now, and while FG is very small compared to SK or mYm, I still noticed what it takes to get everything done. Players just play and do what they like to do. You should really try to stand in a manager's shoes.
greed,
evo went out on a limb to get these guys to a lan just so they could prove them self in a fucking game, and then shit hits the fan for evo and they start crying that money has been stolen.
Q_Q guys real life takes priority man up and grow up,
really what this shows is why eSports will never really take of (to a higher state than it is) due to the nature of it's immaturity
Besides, how are Iron and Matias's financial situations not "real life" ?
I'll be waiting when we're getting our money.
fuck yeah!
2) jose maurinho
3) Arachon
4) arsene wenger
5) rafa benitez
that sums it all up