"The Old Boys Club" - A legitimate problem for newer bodies to get exposure and work in eSports, or should people try harder?
The question posed by Slasher (Producer and Co-Host @liveonthree)
The responses flooded my twitter with denials but i tended to agree. This is purely from where im coming from which is a just above average shoutcaster with potential, that sounds like my school reports. The point being Slasher did touch upon something that really is out there, and it really can hinder people within eSports.
I tend to draw back to the slightly hung over and tired conversation i mustered with Gonzo at i46. The topic fell upon "big" shoutcasters... he had previously interviewed 2 rather big shoutcasters lets just say and in the most tasteless fashion Gonzo as ever pointed the questions to a area most would tend to avoid, What have you actually done to "nurture" the lower scene of commentators. The answer to say the least was spluttered and avoided but to me it does highlight a real point.
Excluding the typical "so you think you can cast" topic being posted what has the "bigger" commentators done for the up and coming few. I think a point was raised at Valencia Congress do the shoutcasting community need a governing body to create a portal of newer talent to come through.
People will reply to this with, if you work hard enough you will be noticed and i agree you do have to work hard you have to work your arse off but then what...That's the point im lucky enough to know and be friends with fantastic people within eSports who i can bounce off of for progression and generally networking too but most don't have that.
To go back to topic "The Old Boys Club" as much as i agree lightly with the implication i would of phrased it more...its who you know. I appreciate Slasher created the title to give hype to the probable following episode of Live on Three. I have to ask the question, when related to pure content providing be it casting or anything else around that marker do you feel the scene in general could do with a governing body to help up and coming people be noticed and moulded into something better? Or should they take the initiative upon their own shoulders?
Now as much as this may seem a bitter rant about me not being noticed, Its far from that. Im lucky where i am, ive worked hard and i have benefited from it.
The question posed by Slasher (Producer and Co-Host @liveonthree)
The responses flooded my twitter with denials but i tended to agree. This is purely from where im coming from which is a just above average shoutcaster with potential, that sounds like my school reports. The point being Slasher did touch upon something that really is out there, and it really can hinder people within eSports.
I tend to draw back to the slightly hung over and tired conversation i mustered with Gonzo at i46. The topic fell upon "big" shoutcasters... he had previously interviewed 2 rather big shoutcasters lets just say and in the most tasteless fashion Gonzo as ever pointed the questions to a area most would tend to avoid, What have you actually done to "nurture" the lower scene of commentators. The answer to say the least was spluttered and avoided but to me it does highlight a real point.
Excluding the typical "so you think you can cast" topic being posted what has the "bigger" commentators done for the up and coming few. I think a point was raised at Valencia Congress do the shoutcasting community need a governing body to create a portal of newer talent to come through.
People will reply to this with, if you work hard enough you will be noticed and i agree you do have to work hard you have to work your arse off but then what...That's the point im lucky enough to know and be friends with fantastic people within eSports who i can bounce off of for progression and generally networking too but most don't have that.
To go back to topic "The Old Boys Club" as much as i agree lightly with the implication i would of phrased it more...its who you know. I appreciate Slasher created the title to give hype to the probable following episode of Live on Three. I have to ask the question, when related to pure content providing be it casting or anything else around that marker do you feel the scene in general could do with a governing body to help up and coming people be noticed and moulded into something better? Or should they take the initiative upon their own shoulders?
Now as much as this may seem a bitter rant about me not being noticed, Its far from that. Im lucky where i am, ive worked hard and i have benefited from it.
Looking back at that brief period of casting think actually asking for help was the biggest hurdle rather than waiting for someone to offer help. Without asking I thought the same initially but then again the Australian community is far more incestuous :p
Its nice to see you were supported in what you did too : )
Mostly i look for the point where its turning from something you do online casually to actually making it more than that, getting the right games to cast, getting to the events and further
I guess at a casual level for me making small group of people happy is all I was (and again in the future if I return to it) after.
I liken top casters to great designers (in that there are not many of them). Those that are good get the majority of the big gigs and stay there for just about as long as they want. That is what makes it so tough for everyone else to break into the "old boys club" I think.
With so many new/major titles coming out every 6 months I think there is always opportunity for new casters to take the lead with them. Even if that means being the "stats guy/girl" as a co-caster.
Do you know how long the likes of Wheat, Joe, Deman, ReDeYe and myself casted on audio only to audiences of sub 100? YEARS. I used to cast ET SummerCup division 2, 3 matches a night, in RTCW I casted the matches warwitch didnt want same in CoD1. I remember the first Quake 4 eurocup where Redeye casted about 75% of all the group games.
Do you see ANY caster putting in that amount of hours? No, your personal activity at the moment is possibly the closest thing to it and you know that this comment isnt aimed at you. Back in the days when the old boys club was doing audio only, there was only a LAN once a quarter and you had to pay to go yourself. Everything was truly a hobby. Now because its a viable profession, people lose interest quickly if they feel they're being held back. Money changed things, people now want it quickly - well that old boys club were the ones pioneering talent fees for casters so people should forgive those that have done it longer, harder and in 99% of cases BETTER for holding their ground.
You personally, you should know that you're on the right track. You're doing LANs, you're working for multiple agencies and you're getting great promo from places like Twitch and own3D. More people are listening to you than ever did to me because the video medium now engulfs such a wide audience. As Aretha Franklin sang, sisters are doing it for themselves, you don't need anyone to help you rise.
Honestly the cheat sheet stuff that Deman highlighted to me really did take me from saying the same old words to pushing it to sound somewhat interesting and listening back to the streams and casts to be as critical as possible.
As much as that is a small example the amount of people who don't do it shocks me, I just feel as you guys are the best out there you know the routes people need to take to further themselves and i do remember on the VEC someone did say people are taking it further towards a new style of casting of their own accord but that's just shit, most sound unprofessional and sloppy.
My point being you guys CAN help people get their foot in the door and without it, people can fade away.
For the love of the game <3 that is what is used to be about. Even as players you didn't want that crappy 3 month private server prize at the end of the season, you just wanted to beat your rival team no matter how many hours you "wasted" practicing.
Now even players don't want to bother turning up if there isn't any decent prize on offer.
Modus Operandi vs Adversus, iceman34 vs Demanufacturer (oh the hatred between the two!), casted by Ej and Bob with special guest Chrisis. Virtual glory the only prize!
So I wouldn't say the amount of passionate, talented casters has deteriorated, or even their chance to make it big, it's just the landscape of the current scene that has allowed to give them some sort of exposure so you take some peripheral note of them. There is at least the same amount of aspiring casters that do not only cast 2-3 games every now and then, but churn out 6-8 hours of casting regularly for one day cups and the likes.
I'd also like to commend Pansy at this point for being so very talented that I watch games I usually wouldn't because I like her casting so much. She is, and I'm not being sexist, but rather in contrast to the ever so prominent stigma you see in Twitch chat and on reddit, my favorite female caster in all of eSports at the moment.
Firstly it depends on how much you measure your success? Is it being recognised in your game as a good commentator? Is it getting to cast a minor event(I-Series/Local Lan?) a major event (DH, IEM, IPL, MLG, NASL) Or is it to be recognised by your peers no matter what the game? Or everything and more?
Personally I fall in-between on the old boys club, I was around back then but I was certainly an unknown to the major communities. Sure I was big in my respective games (BF1942, SupCom, CoD4) but outside of them communities no one had a clue who I was and probably still don't to an extent. Now I've reached the top end of League of Legends casting does this make me new or old boys club? I was in TsN but relatively unknown and certainly never did CPL, I'm in QuadV but again was very much one of the lesser names in terms of ReDeYe and TosspoT but I gained the contacts ranging from back then and beyond.
Which for me is the real key, the first step on the major event ladder for me was knowing people in the industry. This doesn't need to be casters but event organisers as well. Take MLG New York Summer Arena in August as an example. It was my first MLG and Joe Miller couldn't attend so instead recommended me. However it didn't end there. MLG asked for community feed back as well as my personal feedback on all the other casters recommended to them and gauged their opinions on who to hire on the back of that.
So from that event a caster like Trevor "Qu1ksh0t" Henry who was a CoD4 South African gamer got into a position working his ass off daily at freaks4u, helped launch in2lol, became known for his energetic casting style which in-turn got him noticed. 3 months later he is alongside me at MLG and earning the deserved praise from the community. So has he "made it"? He is certainly not from the old boys club and his hard work helped him get there.
In my opinion it's a bit of both, if you are good enough and an event is screaming for a good caster you will rise to the top with a lot of hard work. And it is just that, hard work, usually unpaid simply for the love. For CoD4 I did multiple games every night while working full time for roughly 20 months solid having to organise the time slots on irc while at work and juggle schedules along with casting partners. Only off the back of that did the smaller events happen like TeX, AEF, I-Series and even then the greater eSports world would be oblivious to who/what was happening in our CoD4 bubble. I'd say during that whole time in Call of Duty 4 I probably earned less than £1000 so it certainly wasn't done for the cash but the love of what you do. If you don't love it, forget it and move on cause your in it for the wrong reasons.
Did any of that help me in my current game? Not really. Ironically it was through my friendship of Joe Miller that helped more than anything. A young lad from Rotherham who I met as a fellow gamer at I16, we got on well and began casting together learning our trade through Battlefield 1942, drifted apart and then came back together for QuadV when I jumped in on a SupCom game at I30 with him. I joined QuadV on the back of that then blasted through CoD4 and again drifted apart as he went to ESL and I stopped casting. Only by luck did I meet back up at UGC (stremy's event) which QuadV produced where we had a beer fueled discussion of casting LoL and we took it from there.
It's taken me roughly 10 years to get to where I am and I still feel I'm a long way off being recognised as a top commentator in my field but I have certainly reached a stage where it's become more of a job than a hobby and thankfully the money is now reflecting that. I still don't feel I've made it yet though and have a lot of things to improve in my current game and beyond.
So Old Boy (I'm certainly old) or New Boy? My current community has no record of eSports before League of Legends, they are all new to the scene. So in that regards I am both! If you're good enough and work hard enough you'll get noticed and break through regardless of where your from or what your history.
ps. Long rant put off by Laurens nagging!
Leigh "Deman" Smith
p.s its not nagging just encouragement !
14:57:59] Lauren Scott: oh sorry
[14:58:03] Lauren Scott: hehe
[14:58:24] Lauren Scott: nice to see even in your old age you can still remember your login :P
However my point is we are all working towards the same goal and while we do indeed help each other out as I am constantly getting approached for online stuff I can't do and pass along to people I recommend we are also after the same events.
If MLG were to say "We can only afford 1 EU caster for this event" I would obviously push myself for that role and no one else. There is only so many casting positions at events and hundreds of casters trying to get in that spot and to get to that spot, well currently I am in the way. So the question from my now rather privileged position is "why should I help them when it's my own position at stake?". This is why I believe a lot of top end people are very picky on who they help and their reasons why.
Right now I would say eSports is in the best position it has ever been in it's entire history but the sceptic and old head on my shoulders knows a bubble may burst again at some point and when it does I want to make sure I'm on top when the events go thin on the ground again.
To be honest, I totally agree with you. That's the biggest problem in my eyes, many people want to get into shoutcasting but have no clue on how to go about it and where to go to get help. Where as with your proposal they wil have somewhere to go and talk about how to get better and "bounce off of for progression." Pretty damn good idea!
And i thrive to be in the league with the likes of DeMaN, TosspoT and ReDeYe etc etc.
The only one who has helped me so far with advice etc has been Pansy, and i really thank her for that.
I felt that with her teachings i did grow as a caster.
But i feel that getting advice from other top casters would indeed help me to reach my goal.
Which is to be amongst the best casters there are.
Regards
WaRHaMMeR
"Richard Lewis @Richard_A_Lewis
From my own experiences the "old boys club" can, and will, delay you getting where you want to be. They definitely can't stop you outright."
"Richard Lewis @Richard_A_Lewis
You will be up against some people if they feel threatened but that's just how it is and if you're dedicated enough you'll "make it"."
Now with the explosion of Online Streaming and youtube, we are at a situation with the market being saturated with casters looking to do games/events and such like. As a result, the good casters who would be discovered under the older system are now buried under the sheer number of voices so to speak.
In some ways, an organisation for Online Media Broadcasters would be a good thing. For example.
However, the way that the organisation is laid out is a key part. Would they look to have a committee, with a president? My concern is that then the organisation would be driven by the personal agenda of the president of the organisation, possible to the detriment of the overall scene and the casters in general. As a point of reference that Paul might appreciate, look at the Presidency of FIA by Jean Marie Ballestre.
Tosspot also made a very good point about how the financial model for casting and media coverage has changed significantly since the early days (now known as PT : Pre-Tosspot :)) The revenue that can be earned by a single individual is significantly more than would be under an organisation. As stated, the issue that QuadV has as in what can it offer to the up and coming caster, with the monetary situation as it is.
The PT era while being easier to become known, also was a pretty dark time for casters being paid for events. The problem is that everyone was doing it for free, and so moving to a caster paying model was resisted in general, as the logic was, "if i have to pay you to cast, ill get this guy who will do it for free". This underminded the attempts by companies such as TsN and ITG to ensure their casters were paid for their time.
Also, there becomes the issue of if being setup, there are disagreements and then a split and then you end up with two governing bodies, both trying to manage the same thing with all the nightmares that this produces.
p.s. cant wait
Really good topic, though. It's clearly sparked a great discussion with good, reputable names showing up to chime in with their input.
My general consensus about the whole thing is this; In the earlier days, it was hard for "the old boys" to get their work out there. But their challenge was that this was all relatively new. Today's challenge for the people coming up through the ranks is that they have to be different, consistent and of high quality. It's extremely important to stay relevant in today's highly competitive space. I think this applies not only to commentators, but also to event organisers like myself.
Anyway, I do believe that hard workers will see their rewards. If it takes 6 months or 6 years, then so be it. Patience is oh so important, imo. Something that I've had to learn recently!
I now hope your hunger for my articulate response has been satisfied.
I'd think some form of governing body could work nicely, but I wouldn't have the first idea how you'd implement it, and how it would work. However, I'm also a firm believer that hard work and an unrelenting drive to improve are the foundations of any good caster.
I know how much work, effort and time you've invested into casting and eSports, and as TosspoT said earlier, there is no doubting you're on the right path.
"It's who you know" - as you put it towards the end of your article is certainly something that rings true with me.
If you have the contacts and have a good relationship with the right people, there is no doubting it can boost your success speed, but then again it could be said this is the same with most things in life.
I certainly know what it's like from a personal level to burn bridges or annoy such people, and have felt the effects as a result. As a pretty much unknown caster from the vast majority of people in the communities that I've casted for, I understand fully how it is to put time, effort and hours in and get very little in return. Whether it be recognition, gratitude or financial gain.
It's also important to note that we as casters (and I'm not directing this at you Lauren) shouldn't think we deserve praise, wages, or success. Typically if a caster is talented enough and willing to put in the hours and work for it, they'll achieve what they set out to do.
It really comes down to how much you love casting, and how far you are willing to go to reach the goals you have set for yourself.
Here's the background to those that haven't read TEK9, Metuz submitted an application to join QuadV that wasn't followed up on by QuadV due to neglect more than anything else. The subsequent years of hate and flame that followed were unbelievable. From my side, it was good sport but Metuz don't you dare portray yourself as remotely innocent. You gunned for us, I had no idea that we had offended you in such a way until the repeated tirades on TEK9. (I will admit once aware I did nothing but fan the flames).
Its not like there weren't such debates in the TsN/iTG days, actually I'd go as far as to say they were far worse. However I would put you directly in the category of a little work, a little bump in the road who can I blame and how quickly. To your credit you've carried on and made a name for yourself in LoL, but you'll always have the problem that in the game you do now cast, the number 1 caster is the same guy you went for. Now I don't speak for Deman (amazingly we dont talk about you!), I don't know his opinion of you but I highly doubt he'd think, hmm, I need a LoL caster...Shall I get metuz.
This isn't an old boys club, this is human nature, you find it on the playground, you find it in the work place and you certainly find it here in eSports. The good lord of eSports Angel Munoz teaches us, Play Hard, Go Pro. Not, Piss off the incumbents, Go Pro.
At no point did I mention you in my comment other than quoting what you'd said, and you come out with this. I'm pretty stunned. I never gunned for you, and any flame that came from me towards yourself had nothing to do with not being accepted into QuadV.
Either way, I thought you were passed this, and the fact you so readily bring it up again in a post completely unrelated to what you're talking about amazes me even further. Incredible.
I even attempted to message you and apologise, and got no reply.
So please spare me this 'who can I blame and how quickly' bullshit, get over the fact we didn't (and still don't) see eye to eye on things and move on.
That really annoys me, actually. But maybe that's a topic for discussion when this Valve Forever code is up for grabs.
To PC or not to PC?
Devolution - How far is too far?
Alex Salmond - Is the D in Salmon for Douche?
Help from others is always helpful but don't rely on it. If you keep putting the effort in eventually the rewards will come.
On another note - first time I've been to Crossfire.nu for a while, new site layout is a great refreshing change.
Definitely the best comment in this thread! :DDD
Also, your Alex Salmond comment trumps Ben's.
On Crossfire. Loving it.
From my personal perspective, I see a group of casters and presenters at the top of their game not as an "Old Boys Club" as such but as a group of people who (from what I can tell by reading the comments) have worked their way up. I'm still very new to this side of gaming but as with all walks of life I see successful e-Sport presenters and casters more as an inspiration than a roadblock to my own success. I suppose that mentality could come from the fact I've never considered e-Sports as a career path for myself. Only recently are those kind of thoughts creeping up on me.
I can't help but feel, though, that having a mindset where we're too concerned with the people in our way that are similar to us, instead of trying to create content that makes us different from those people, is unhealthy. Also, I guess with a "make something unique" or "approach casting in a unique way" mentality we're then creating content that isn't necessarily a threat to the "Old Boys Club", as Deman pointed out, but content that can work along side what they do. I get that this only really works in a small set of circumstances but I think it should be something to strive for.
As for a governing body; My gut reaction to the idea of the "Successful" becoming the "Governers" (No matter how cool it would be to have on their CV!) is a scary premise. I think what makes e-Sport such a cool culture to be a part of (apart from the fact we get to play games all day) is that it is 'free'. Free in the sense that it's a culture born out of the internet where Joe Bloggs is free to play games and cast them and make videos about whatever he likes, whenever he can for viewers who enjoy what he's doing. It's that freedom of expression in an around-about kind of way that must have inspired the, now successful, casters/presenters to do these things. I'm sure the governing body you imagine Lauren wouldn't hinder this 'freedom to create' but there'd have to be rules I guess? I'd be interested to hear what exactly you imagine the governing body's role would be part from creating networking opportunities. Some of Chadman's suggestions above sound pretty good to me but he makes a good point about the importance of the structure. After all, giving all the power to one 'President' (at this stage, especially) could do more harm than good.
Overall, interesting article and some great back and forth in the comments. I think I might stick around here.
Loved your thoughts towards it.
Gaming is becoming far more mainstream and the amount of people it attracts is exponentially growing, most of whom have no idea what it's taken for people to get where they are and so expect things to happen a lot faster than they want, and infact should happen.
The original question put forward by slasher can be answered simply with a "Yes", but not because there is a conspiracy between the people who created the profession, but because they are simply the best out there at the moment so of course its going to be hard to break through. They have more experience, more contacts and wider audiences so its going to be hard, and so it should be. It should be difficult to get to the top, in anything.
People who want to break into the scene and really make it will have to do what anybody does in a personality and knowledge led profession - make themselves interesting and unique, while working damn hard and getting somewhat lucky along the way. The balance of those things will differ, but that mix is all it requires.
Great people won't make it and that's unfair, but eSports is an industry in its infancy and there are, as there will ever be only so many places at the top. For now at least that number of places is growing quickly.
As for a governing body I don't think it will help here. The true essence of a governing body is to ensure fairness and make sure the rules within whatever it governs are enforced. Casting is becoming (possibly already is) an industry in its own right and already a highly competitive one, this is not something that can be controlled by a 'governing body'. One group to determine who casts where and what tournaments? Which up-and-comer gets what opportunity? This is peoples careers not a share the love campaign.
A long way down the line some sort of governing body may be needed, but it will be for things like ensuring people aren't taking bribes to promote certain things unfairly or employ certain people over others. Also on the flip side of that to protect casters and ensure they are treated fairly by employers. Currently however I feel a different solution is required and it's business led.
Talent agencies. Maybe for those right at the top this is already happening, (I have little to no knowledge of the ins and outs of casting) but I can't see it being far away.
Top casters will have managers who look after their careers, pitch them for jobs and other lucrative opportunities. As esports grows the money in it grows, with that the more notice established industries will pay attention. Take a look at the VEC, companies like CBS are already there. These agencies also go out and spot new talent and nurture that as it comes through to ensure their profitability and revenue streams are secure.
Alongside this other businesses could be formed by those with expert knowledge, maybe by some of the 'old boys club' that may one day retire. These businesses could be schools for those that want to learn the industry from the professionals and are willing to pay for it. To some extent this has already been tried, Tosspot mentioned earlier that QuadV was set up with this in mind but as ever with pioneering ideas maybe a bit early and the industry wasn't ready (for this to be a profit making business - I think it was and still is successful for the communities it supported).
I know this could be seen as an idea where those with money get through, but as with anything else out there people with raw natural talent and sheer determination will always shine through. But as with any industry people need to make money or its just not worth it. Money sustains growth, cheesy maybe but its true.
So there you have it - yes its difficult to get to the top, but so it should be. And business needs to step in to help nurture those coming through and secure the future of casting as an industry. (I guess that was the TLDR).
This was probably the longest response I have written to anything on the internet (maybe an article on its own) but I just got going and anyone that reads tek-9 will know I can go on. Nice work on the article Lauren, see you Sunday for Eurogamer!
Shameless plug - follow me @STUZZOR :D
Your TL:DR sums up pretty much how i personally feel too btw ;p great reply
I think also working behind the camera as I have been for quadv these last few years, has given me a good idea of the work involved in casting. Have been a cameraman for redeye numerous times, and enjoyed it. Now I look forward to do some co-casting with the more known members of the casting community, when their schedules or patience allows.
Why is that? Because they bring their A game, and people rise to the challenge of working with someone better than them.
A slight tangent, but I just wanted to mention it