Which DAC/Amp ? | Journals | Crossfire

Maybe have a look at the stuff on http://www.head-fi.org/products/category/amp-dacs ???

I did.. but the opinions are really different.. I even made two threads and no one could properly help me so far :/

Parent

There is so much vital info missing, like pricerange, which implementation will be prefered (usb or spdif), if you want preamp function within dac or even combo dac/amp device.

100€-200€ per device (as I have two system I might need 2 devices.. one DAC/AMP and one DAC).

USB or SPID/F depends on the device.. some work better with USB and some with SPID/F. Generally I dont care for the laptop usage. How ever for the "computer/tv -> sony amp -> speakers system" SPID/F might be the better solution (as the TV can't playback via USB... but it also isn't that much of a problem as I watch TV via my HTPC.. so all the audio comes from my PC but that maybe changes in the future if I decide to watch TV without the pc).

pre-amp function?

Well I thought about a DAC + AMP (in one device or as two devices.. dont care) for my "laptop -> sennheiser" usage and one DAC for my "pc/tv -> sony amp -> speakers" usage (as I have the sony as amp?).

Thanks

Btw design plays kind of a role as well for my audio system :P

@edit: maybe I should just try a DAC first on all systems. If I notice a difference I can use that DAC for my "pc -> sony amp" usage and get a dac/amp for my laptop?

Parent

My recommendation -> get some combo, it can be easily used in both of your systems without need to switch cables all the time.

Yulong D100 - combo device, can run as standalone dac or dac+headphone amp. Should go for around 400e and I think its available within EU.

Audio-GD NFB-12.1 - I have one myself. Like D100, it can serve as standalone dac or combo device. Its not avi in EU, but communicatio with manufacturer is pleasant and shipped with all taxes its cost should go above 240e (mine was around 220e total).

both of those have all needed digital inputs (coax/optical spdif, usb), but no such low budget device will have async USB implementation, so I would advice on using coax spdif.

btw, dont search for good looking device in this price range, you might get disappointed :)

Parent

Ye I already saw the Yulong.. but 400€ is quite a lot. And I thought it was either DAC or Amp.. didn't know it could do both at the same time.

The Audio-GD looks quite nice from the pictures. Need to check the technical specs later. Price seems to be fine as well.

I would really perfer two devices as my laptop might not be anywhere near to my pc/sony/tv system. Also the whole system kinda works automatically (Logitech Harmony Remote) so the only non-automatic thing would be switching cables for the DAC ;P I guess I will just get a Fiio E17 or similiar for the pc/tv/sony system?

Well I read a lot of different opions about USB vs. SPID/F :/ I guess the best solution would be to try it out.

Thanks !

Parent

USB vs SPDIF, thats very hard to compare. In general, it depends on so many things, primarily:
1. Is USB implemented in asynchronous fashion? if not -> coax spdif is the way to go
2. If USB is in async mode, does it internally uses USB to SPDIF converter? if yes, then its tricky and quality depends solely on that internal implementation. If not, USB should be superior to SPDIF.

Because async USB is thing not common in low-fi , coax is mostly better input. I think the cheapest dac to have decent async USB implementation is Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus, which is way above your intended budget.
If I were you, I would go for something from Audio-GD, they have very good price/performance ratio and they got very popular all over head-fi (so there must be something about them :P ).

Parent

Ye I already read all the stuff about USB vs SPID/F :)

Hmm a friend now also recommended me to check aus www.esi-audio.de or www.esi-audio.com

48000Hz should be enough for me? I won't ever need 96kHz or more?

Parent

Never heard of that company, so can't compare their products to anything.

About audio resolution, you should be more than fine with 24/96, unless you have some very special recordings. Just to say, CD quality is 16/44.1

Parent

btw have u read smth about this one?

http://www.mav-audio.com/store/index.php/dac/tube-magic-dac-d1-1.html?SID=jqc0astm8lpl73aqkf0mdinog0

it looks really nice and has good reviews on head-fi.

Parent

tubemagic should do the job as well, I actually never realised how good it looked :)

btw, there is a topic on head-fi about users setups, you might take a look for some general inspiration

Parent

could u give me the link? cant find it :(

Parent

http://www.head-fi.org/t/529140/show-us-your-head-fi-station-at-its-current-state-no-old-pictures-please/6885#post_8483798

here is the link directly to my post where I describe what I want in near future :)

Parent

not sure if other peoples set up will help me. My setup is really weird and old. I have a fully Sony Esprit-Series setup and most people on head-fi have modern new stuff.

Also I am not sure how much difference I will even get when listening to music/playing games and maybe sometimes watching movies with DAC/AMP + HD600 vs no DAC/AMP + HD555.

Parent

in games and movies, there should be virtually no difference. In music, the difference should be more obvious. I had HD595 with relatively decent sound card, when I switched to DAC + AMP + ATH-W1000X, it was something totally different. And it will get much better with Calyx Dac, Svetlana 2 amp and W3000 (which I already own). The question is, canl that difference in sound justify huge different in price?

Parent

That is a good question.. I love listening music via my stereo system (so sony amp + speakers). But I can't always tune it up (and I mostly use that system of watching movies). So ye I guess I mostly listen to music via my laptops/headphones and I want to have a good quality. So I guess an upgrade for ~500€ is worth it.

Do you think a DAC would improve the quality of my stereo system?

HTPC/TV -> DAC -> sony amp (has no digital input) -> magnat zero 8 speakers?

@edit: I am thinking about ordering everything + trying it out and if it sucks I send it back :P

@edit2: is a dac + external amp any better? I mean I could also use my sony TA-F690ES as amplifier.. but I wouldn't want to have that big thing powered on all day somehow :P

Parent

trying it all out is the best, at least you can see (hear) for yourself what you are investing into. Btw, when it comes to audio chains, there is a simple rule, the closer device is to listener the bigger influence it has on quality. So, better phones/speakers will bring better listening experience than better amp, which on the other hand is "more important" than better dac. However, when you start from scratch, every new component will make itself present in sound.

Parent

Alright, thanks for the rule ;)

I think the HD600 is a very good choice. And I think the maverick tubemagic d1 is an excellent dac+amp as well? Or would there be anything for ~ the same price that could make a big difference?

Parent

HD600 are considered an end game by many ppl, they are one of the best price/performance ratio holding headphones of all times. However, they need quality amp to really shine, they aren't the easiest headphones to drive. I personally would go for Audio-GD NFB-12 over Tubemagic D1, but that might be just personal preference (I have read that D1s headphone output isn't that special). But it would be very inconvenient to return NFB-12 in case you won't be satisfied.

Parent

Hmm what other option would I have besides the Tubemagic D1? Would it be enough for the HD600 or should I invest more money for a DAC/AMP ?

Parent

Well, if anything, go for NFB-12, should be better match for HD600. But if you want to invest more money, you could get something special out of your HD600. There are some sub $300 amps, that are perfect for them. I am talking about these brands:

Shiit audio - they are very smooth looking and good sounding, very popular on head-fi. They have some lower priced models which are known to perform very well (Asgard or Valhalla)

Little Dot - another bang for the buck manufacturer, they are very also very popular amongst low/mid-fiers. I think models MK II or MK III would be perfect for you.

LD MKIII or Shiit Valhalla would be heaven for you, but you would still need to get dedicated DAC with them (I think there are some decent ones for around 100-150$). But we are already on ~$400 mark, so dunno if you want to spend that much.

Parent

the little Dot MK III is 200$ which is a fair price? :> + a DAC for 100$.. well I would go for it I guess ;P

The TubeMagic D1 still looks better tho :P

Parent

its very fair price, I don't think there is a better amp for that price, but remember you will have to pay another $50 for shipping and ~20% as import fee and tax. With current dolar-euro exchange rate, you will be close to 250e in total. And you still need DAC, because its just amp alone.
However, I haven't seen a single person not to like MKIII with HD600, so it's pretty safe to say you will like it at least (with a bit of a luck, you will love it :P ).

EDIT: heh, the look :P been there but at the end, I will rather go for the best sound. I wanted WooAudio WA2, it's perfect looking amp, but I am already decided to go for less appealing but better sounding Svetlana 2 (better sounding with my headphones!!! for some other headphones WA2 would be better as its OTL design).

Parent

well the MKIII looks kinda small and cheap :P The tubemagic would be much bigger and looks more massive. But if you say it's the best choice then I guess I will go for it. And 250€ are fine. But which DAC should I use ?

@edit: oh it just looked small on the pictures.. so MKIII it is ;P

@edit2: can i run a tube amplifier all day long? It would be powered on / in usage when ever I sit infront of my laptop :o How often do I have to change the tubes?

Parent

well, I dont think Tubemagic is as big as it appears to be from pictures, but the best would be to see Tubemagic and MKIII "face-to-face".

About the DAC, well, dunno, if you need full dac with all inputs (usb, optical and coax), I am not sure if there are any options in sub $150 category. Try to check Creative E-MU 0204 (good quality but I think its usb only), maybe some Fiio or NuForce stuff. I am not really familiar in this price range tbh, first interesting stuff begins around $200 (technically, your Tubemagic or NFB-12 can work as standalone dacs). There is one more thing you can do - buy either Tubemagic D1 or NFB-12, if you wont be satisfied with what you hear, you can get MKIII (which is basically designed for headphones like HD600).

Parent

USB & SPID/F is what I need. I dont need coax as I have nothing that supports it ;P

Hmm the Tubemagic D1 as DAC only usage.. wouldn't that be a bit of waste of an good amp? :(

Btw: What about Yulong D-100 vs MKIII + DAC ?

And how often would I need to change the tubes?

thanks

Parent

depends on tubes, I had been told normal tubes last around 2000-3000 hours (or smth like that).

D100 vs MKIII+DAC, in general I would say that MKIII with any half decent dac will outperform D100 in combo mode, as I said MKIII was designed for HD600 (not per se, but they are perfect match). However, D100 has much better built-in amp than NFB-12 or Tubemagic.

About Tubemagic as in DAC only mode, Tubemagics amp is decent at best, its not waste to "replace" it with MKIII. Even NFB-12 has better amp than Tubemagic has.

Parent

Hmm

300€ for HD 600
250€ for MKIII
now another ~200€ for a DAC.

I guess I will ask on head-fi for more comments on D100 vs MKIII + DAC... the pricing here goes up rly fast ;P I mean.. 2 days ago I said 200€ is max for DAC+amp :D

@edit: some DAC i just found: Audioengine D1

Parent

as I said, get NFB-12 (or Tubemagic D1 if you really like its look) and "see" for yourself. If you will feel like you still want something more from your HD600, you might want to consider getting MKIII.

Parent

"feel like you want more"... ofcourse I want more ;P If I invest 300€for a new pair of headphones (altough my current ones still work fine) then I want to make something good out of it. And if you say that the MKIII clearly outperforms the TubeMagic D1.. well then I am sure I want the MK III.

Would you sell your NFB-12 anytime soon ?

Parent

Well, maybe I will sell it when I collect enough money for new stuff, but considering my current salary and investments I need to do, it won't be any time soon.

Parent

Alright, thanks for your help :) I will go to bed now. Need to re-think this whole situation. I started with HD600 + DAC.. then went to 200€ for DAC & AMP.. now I am at 250€ for AMP and another 200€ for DAC :P

Parent

It wont hurt you to get NFB-12 (Tubemagic D1) first and use it with HD600 for a while, there is built-in amp after all. If you think there is more to your HD600 than you are hearing, then you will go for the big guns. 250e more than you originally intented is big jump, I dont want you to spend so much money based solely on what I am saying/recommending :)

Parent

did some googling today.. I could get the MK III for 200€ (including shipping + tax). I might also get the HD 600 cheaper than expected. So I will definitely go for the full setup. If you look down, zafoga recommended the odac DAC. I also read a lot about it on head-fi. It's about 100€ so I wonder if it is fine for me? Also it seems like that device won't need any driver.

Parent

afaik ODAC is very good in what it does, but it has only USB input (no optical/coax). On the other hand, its in async mode so it should be better than usb implementations on NFB-12/Tubemagic (cant say for sure, didnt have a chance to try it and one can question the quality of master clock in such cheap device). But if you are ok with USB only, you would hardly find anything better in this price.

Parent

Alright, I guess this will be my setup then. ODAC + MK III + HD600. A simple DAC with SPID/F might be usefull now (which doesn't need any driver) for my other system :D

@edit: also made a topic and head-fi:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/615933/please-rate-my-future-setup

Parent

did u try HD598? would like to get that headset.. design is awesome and i hope sound is good too

Parent

HD598 is completely different from HD600/HD650, mainly because of their huge difference in impedance. I had HD595 (the predecessor of HD598), very solid headphones and one of the best allrounders to use without need to invest into amp to juice them properly.

Parent

guess that would suit me just fine.

btw. u think Cambridge dac are not rly good?

Parent

I wouldnt say they are bad. I don't have any personal experience with any of CA stuff, but from what I read about them, you will get what you pay for, nothing extraordinary (but that does not mean its bad). If you think I thought they are bad based on my previous comment, I was trying to say that I dont think that CA DacMagic Plus (~550e) will perform same as Anedio D2 (~1500e) or Calyx 24/192 (~1900e), not that it doesnt perform as 550e DAC should.

Parent

oh that...yea ofc i dont expect that. Ive got my cambridge audio A1 amp with some old mirage speakers for my PC and for my use it's really nice...not any kind of cheap 2.1 or 5.1 trash can compare to it. I also got audio 540c CD player for my main setup down in the livingroom, alongside with old sansui 9090 receiver (like 35years old) + dali grand diva speakers and it's working really nice. i do think that cambridge for it's price is really decent.(also i like their design a lot)

Parent

Filius is your man, looking forward to reading some responses here. I've got to go out for a meal now, but when i get some spare time i'll come find you on le-irc :)

get the cheapest dac you can get or none at all.

maybe the odac / o2 combo

-> http://headnhifi.com/index.php/shop/objective

also try to avoid head-fi , its one big commercial wrapped in a forum suit

like ALO audio selling custom power cables for 1xx $ , one guy removed the techflex and noticed that they just used a 5$ cable and rewrapped it .... all posts regarding this case got deleted ...

fact is ive heard a shitload of dacs from schiit , calyx to red wine audios Isabellina ... the difference is sometimes not audible at all or just distortion.

on the contrary, cheapest dacs are useless, not any better from random soundacards. And if you can't hear the difference between $200 dac and $2000 dac, good for you, consider yourself lucky, but that doesn't mean there is none nor other people can't hear it as well. But as I said, difference between dacs are much more subtle than differences between headphones (or amps), so difference between $200 and $600 dac wont be that dramatic, nor $600 vs $1500.

About cables, well, ye, I am sceptical towards them as well, especially when it comes to digital interconnects.

Parent

then do yourself a favor and make some blindtests, i did and i failed ... so did my brother who could buy 2 cars in exchange with his audio gear

Parent

trust me, if I could I would. But there is no way to get a chance to hear some equipment around here, especially pieces I am interested into. DAC is not that important tho, basicaly any transparent one will suffice, amp choice is much more crucial. On the other hand, I don't think CA DacMagic Plus can quite pair itself with the likes of Anedio D2 or Calyx DAC 24/192.

Parent

Thanks for your reply. I guess I will get the ODAC (but I would need it with a housing so not just the PCB :/) + the Little Dot MK III. Just because so many people seem to be happy with the Little DOT MK III.

Parent

I'm using the Little Dot I+
was on a budget and it seemed to be the best choice for lower imp. headphones, which mine is: Shure srh-840

And I absolutely love it <3 Using m8100 tubes btw.

my DAC isn't the best i guess, the Fiio E7, but it is portable and small which I like a lot for traveling/moving with my in-ears (HifiMan RE-0)

Parent

Ye the Fiio seem to be a nice :) But as I never use in-ear I don't really care about quality with portable usage.

Also not sure which tubes I should use.

Parent

check ebay for 6J1P-EV or buy them here

http://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-MATCHED-TUBES-GOLD-GRID-6J1P-EV-6J1P-EF95-6F32-6AK7-NOS-PAIR-/310404929930?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item484593598a

which are basicly the same as the following link , just cheaper ...

http://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-Voshkod-6ZH1P-EV-Matched-Pair-Little-Dot-Amp-MKIII-MKIV-MKII-II-III-IV-I-/290625571984?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43aaa24c90

supposed to be one of the best options in several tube rolling topics.

Sauce:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/563884/little-dot-tube-amps-vacuum-tube-rolling-guide

using them aswell and they are quite an upgrade compared to the stock tubes (no more distored lows)

Parent

Ye thanks, I already broke my head about the tube rolling. Do you have a LD MK III yourself or what amp to you use?

Parent

i got a ld 1+ that i barely use, also got a yulong d100 mk1 on my desk.

Parent

So I guess you will agree with my setup? :)

ODAC as DAC,
LD MK III as AMP
Sennheiser HD 600

Parent

seems to be alright !

i was btw lucky and didnt have to pay any custom fees for my LD

Parent

Ye maybe I get lucky as well :) Or mabye I can buy a used one somewhere

Parent

what do you think about getting a dac/amp combo like: audio-gd nfb 12.1 or tubemagic d1 for the HD600 ?

Parent

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