educational journal | Journals | Crossfire

Quote -there is no such thing as illegal download

Nope, when people invest money to produce something, why should you have the right to have it for free?
You dont go in a store an take stuff because "there is no such a thing as illegal taking"

"-there is no such thing as illegal download" - it always stands correct see videos (edit: i understand its long, see 1st 40min of 2nd video )

about your post...........
i dont have the right to have it for free, per se, if i buy it i can do what ever the hell i please with it

example: if i buy a cd, i can use/crop the songs and put in a fragmovie, even mix the tracks
after i buy it noone can forbid me of using it to what ever purpose i intend to use it

Parent

I wouldnt say you could do what ever you want after you bought it.
Whatever you want to do with it without making money out of that would be the better definition for me.

Parent

ok
-sharing with friends over internet is not profiting from it
-on that particular process the only people that get hurt are record companies which only pay 0.005% of benefits to majority of artists(go check)
-if artist is good, it gets publicly spread, making people into buy his albums and redirecting profit directly to artist because these days technology allows people to do so

Parent

I wasnt talking about music in particular.
More about the general filesharing "ethics".

As long as major labels still rule the music business, you wont be able to change the direction the money goes.

Parent

after i buy a CD if i want to, i can charge other people to listen to it

if they feel like ofc lol

but its legal, and still, i dont have authorship over that CD

Parent

Thats not allowed as you use others intellectual property to make a profit out of it. To do so, you have to buy the CD under a "profit license", not a priavate consumers license

Parent

http://mises.org/books/against.pdf

FREE BOOK

Parent

Quote if i buy a cd, i can use/crop the songs and put in a fragmovie

actually that's copyright and they can have it removed from sites/youtube if they wanted :P

Parent

after i buy the property(CD) and own a recipt, its mine, and i can do whatever with it

see the first video for the correct meaning and law perspective of copyright (the 1st 30 min)

and if you think for yourself, would it make sense to charge you for every view of a fragmovie you made ?

Parent

I didn't read all these comments above but let me bring you another way of thinking.
Here's a comparison :
If you go to a shop and get a car without paying = stealing.
What if you go to the shop get the car (without paying) and the car still stays in the shop while you still have that car gotten for free?

Parent

that already happens
there is brand and models, if you steal a model there actually are others just like it that stays in the shop

the question is, if u dont own a recipt u cant do shit with it, but if you do, you can tweak, change design, parts, take out the engine and build another car...... its yours

Parent

If me taking the car would cost the shop owner money in terms of "missed turnover" or f.e. for the development of the car itself (technology, engineering costs) its stealing aswell.

Parent

no
thats is what people who enforce that thinking are afraid of

they are afraid that you can develop a better/economic/fast/ or better looking car and then you are the one making money instead of them

Parent

Yeah, its their right to be affraid of that.
Why should I allow someone to take my hard work (the "frame") and improve it slightly and make money with it without getting my share for doing the main work on the end product?

Parent

that is called human progress/evolution

why would you try to stop someone of improving your work after they buy it from you ? you cant own something that you didnt make/create

that is just strugling the natural evolution of things, if you are already making money from it you can invest it on your own projects and upgrade them, its not correct to create something and make money forever by not making/add anything more or letting others to evolve from it

Parent

Example:

I manage to develop a pill curing cancer, that pill causes slight headache.

An other company takes my receipt for the pill and adds some of their aspirin-alike product.

TADA, they have a pill which cures cancer and doesnt cause headache, now they sell the pill for 8x the price I do and in adition, my pill gets banned from the market by health&consumer ministries as it causes a slight headache and the other product doesnt.

Now, that doesnt sound fair to me.

Parent

Quote"my pill gets banned from the market by health&consumer ministries as it causes a slight headache and the other product doesnt.

Now, that doesnt sound fair to me.

you have just admited and aknowledged their product is better than yours, how is that not fair ?

you have created cure for cancer in a pill, your name gets immortalized and certainly you'll get loads of money for it, and you're jealous someone created a better product than you ?? you serious ??

Parent

The product might be better BUT I might have spend billions on the creation of that pill and all of a sudden my product isnt worth shit anymore as its banned and some other company makes trillions with it for just changing a little thing about it while I dont get a single cent, where is that fair?

Parent

i would hope you create cure for cancer for a better world and not with the solely purpose to make profit for your own

that kind of fear, of not becoming personaly successfull/wealthy, would be the main reason your pill was defective in first place =P

back to main discussion:
if you create a plastic bottle, after i buy it, you dont have any right to tell me what to fill it with, if i please i can even melt it and make another thing more usefull for my personal purposes

Parent

Heck, why should I discuss with a communist/socialist?

If I would spend billions on the develepment of a cancer curing pill, I would of course do it for the profit.
Being a company that can afford the billions for the research, I would have shareholders to please and kids to be fed.

Going back to the music part:

Why should I spend my time and money to create a song, get it recorded, get it mixed so you can take it for your fragmovie (or whatever movie) which you upload on youtube and make money with the viewers?
What have you done to improve my work? You are paying for the sole pleasure of listening to it, not using it to make money.

Parent

"Heck, why should I discuss with a communist/socialist?"
i dont even understand this, i care about ideias/correct/wrong/basic principles of freedom, every party have corrects and wrongs, none can actually express correctly the views of everyone, this you should know from yourself

now:
with something as big and dificult as a pill that cures cancer, your grandkids would be able to be fed for several generations

the fragmovies are art created by other persons, both you(song artist) and artstar(fragmovie artist, considering syncing frags and song an art) create your arts FOR FUN and for a pleasurable world to live in

heck, even creating an automobile is a fucking art, HOWEVER noone has the right to stop evolution for the better by strugling others creativity

Parent

Quotethe fragmovies are art created by other persons, both you(song artist) and artstar(fragmovie artist, considering syncing frags and song an art) create your arts FOR FUN and for a pleasurable world to live in

If I would be a musican, I would do it for the money.
If you want to be an artist with your fragmovies, make your own song, pay for its recording and mixing.

You dont stop evolution when protecting values with laws made the right way instead of just dropping all laws around and about it (like the pirate party wants it)

Parent

you can do it for what ever reason floats your boat

there are free tools to do everything you named, no need to pay(not even for lessons on how to manage those softwares because free tutorials)

values are and should be protected, you are confusing value with money, and thats not the right way to see things clearly

Parent

Problem with that being how do you know whether it is actual missed turnover? A lot of the people downloading music would only buy the content if it was free. Its this magical thing called deadweight loss, its this triangle under the supply & demand curve.

Not saying that quabratolas is right though, he thinks that buying a CD actually grants him any rights, while he just bought a license and nothing more.

Parent

no no man what the hell ?

if i buy a CD i own the CD and its songs, i cant claim nothing over the work/art done on the making of the CD, but i can put it in a fragmovie on my own freewill or remix the songs and crop parts of it to use as ringtone for instance

Parent

Which is all included in the license, however the license doesn't cover third parties.

Parent

in the case of a fragmovie, if the third parties are the people that watch

then licensing is just a way of monopolizing the song industry and turn it obsolete(prolly not due to the number of singers that exist), but im not gonna pay so others can watch my fragmovie lol

Parent

I'm not saying I am even remotely in tune with the current legislation on copyright and patents and in your case of a frag movie you can see it as non-profit anyways, but there are guys who do so while making money and not paying royalties.

Parent

so we should all go around in carts with horses or with the first ever made car. Cause all the rest are improvements to that...
No. Imo if you buy something you should be able to do whatever you wish with it. If I buy something from you it's mine not yours anymore.
And if I develop something better based on something you developed, just develop something better based on what I've developed...If you can, if not, its not my fault or anybody elses except of you.
If you want me not to tweak, modify etc a product that you developed, RENT it to me.

Parent

well , here is how i understood it

if you buy something ,and then you upload that thing on a site like utorrent
users can download it legal and for free, JUST FOR HOME use , like not sharing that content again (at a cinema,music at a pub/club, etc )

you download a movie, you watch it safe at your place.
you do anything else with it --> legal action shall be taken :S

Parent

Not gonna watch the video and judging by some of the comments above you don't really know what you're talking about. However, the point you're trying to make is valid. Anyone interested in the topic should read "Against intellectual property" by Stephan Kinsella.

in what way?
explain

Parent

It's just that the reasons you provide are not very solid. Read that article, I think you might find it interesting.

Parent

http://mises.org/books/against.pdf
book says

QuoteT Ty yp pe es s o of f I IP P
Intellectual property is a broad concept that covers sev-
eral types of legally recognized rights arising from some
type of intellectual creativity, or that are otherwise related
to ideas.
4
IP rights are rights to intangible things5
—to ideas,
as expressed (copyrights), or as embodied in a practical
implementation (patents). Tom Palmer puts it this way:
“Intellectual property rights are rights in ideal objects,
which are distinguished from the material substrata in
which they are instantiated.”6
In today’s legal systems, IP
typically includes at least copyrights, trademarks, patents,
and trade secrets.
7

C Co op py yr ri ig gh ht t
Copyright is a right given to authors of “original
works,” such as books, articles, movies, and computer pro-
grams. Copyright gives the exclusive right to reproduce the
work, prepare derivative works, or to perform or present
the work publicly.
8
Copyrights protect only the form or
expression of ideas, not the underlying ideas themselves.
9
While a copyright may be registered to obtain legal
advantages, a copyright need not be registered to exist.
Rather, a copyright comes into existence automatically the
moment the work is “fixed” in a “tangible medium of
expression,” and lasts for the life of the author plus seventy
years, or for a total of ninety-five years in cases in which
the employer owns the copyright.
10

P Pa at te en nt t
A patent is a property right in inventions, that is, in
devices or processes that perform a “useful” function.
11
A
new or improved mousetrap is an example of a type of
device which may be patented. A patent effectively grants
the inventor a limited monopoly on the manufacture, use,
or sale of the invention. However, a patent actually only
grants to the patentee the right to exclude (i.e., to prevent
others from practicing the patented invention); it does not
actually grant to the patentee the right to use the patented
invention.
12
Not every innovation or discovery is patentable. The
U.S. Supreme Court has, for example, identified three cat-
egories of subject matter that are unpatentable, namely
“laws of nature, natural phenomena, and abstract ideas.”13
Reducing abstract ideas to some type of “practical applica-
tion,” i.e., “a useful, concrete and tangible result,”14
is patentable, however. U.S. patents, since June 8, 1995, last
from the date of issuance until twenty years from the orig-
inal filing date of the patent application15
(the previous
term was seventeen years from date of issue).

T Tr ra ad de e S Se ec cr re et t
A trade secret consists of any confidential formula,
device, or piece of information which gives its holder a
competitive advantage so long as it remains secret.
16
An
12
Suppose A invents and patents a better mousetrap, which has a Nitinol
(memory metal) spring for better snapping ability. Now suppose B invents and
patents a mousetrap with a Nitinol spring covered with non-stick coating, to
improve the ability to remove mouse remains while still providing the Nitinol-
driven snapping action. B has to have a mousetrap with a Nitinol spring in
order to use his invention, but this would infringe upon A’s patent. Similarly,
A cannot add the non-stick coating to his own invention without infringing
upon B’s improvement patent. In such situations, the two patentees may cross-
license, so that A can practice B’s improvement to the mousetrap, and so B can
use his own invention.

bottom line, if i have the ideia to make a better mousetrap why should be forbiden just because law doesnt let me, its wrong to stop evolution, new ideias and human imagination over some paper and profits

Parent

That is clearly NOT how copyrights work. Also I can see where you fund your arguments, coming from that guy no1 takes serious, I am sorry but take kots advice , also read some real book if you really care about copyrights or leave it there if you just watched a video from the same guy that invested half or most his money in bitcoins..lol

Parent

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