Oh what a mess we’re in! The offline world of ET, or infact of Wolfenstein has never looked better, yet online we’re in a right pickle. Its an unwritten rule that Wolfenstein will always succeed on Clanbase, the Eurocup seasons have always proven to be a fantastic spectacle no matter the game and the open cup and ladders have offered a great avenue for anyone to get the games they so desire. Yet with the announcement yesterday that Clanbase will not ban the cheaters busted in the Fusen the list, the uproar on the streets has been quite phenomenal.
Whether people are willing to believe it or not, ET does have some pull at Clanbase. The organisation is not fickle, it knows where its players are and it knows how long the mp40 baring soldier has graced Clanbase over their competitors. The decision by Clanbase to, thus far, not act on Fusen’s findings has surprised many. In reality, for an organisation of CB’s size (this applies to ESL too) banning someone on information taken from a hacked site that doesn’t prove that cheats were used in CB matches will always prove to be challenging, they have to take the information at face value, and ignore the opinion of the community. Remember, Torspo would have been banned if popular opinion had been carried through the CB cheat system, something most are glad didn’t. CB is a massive organisation, and you have to be understanding of the time they take to get to a decision, because a wrong one would have massive consequences, so they must take time to get the right one and they usually do, CB does the best job it can with the weight of the responsibility on its shoulders.
That’s all well and good you might say, but you only care about ET and you only care about the problems you face on a daily basis. You’ve seen a bunch of cheaters found out, and you want them gone. You’ve seen a PBGUID system tested and you want it to safeguard you from the cheaters. CB’s actions so far have not been met with widespread approval, infact I’ve had more pm’s in the past 24 hours about CB than I got when the 6on6 vs 5on5 debate was raging. What have they all said? “Toss, Crossfire should run a league or cup!”
For some reason people seem to undervalue ESL as an option, I’m not quite sure why. Their IPS was fantastic, especially the coverage. Chosen and Kafux put CB to shame on their level of coverage, and CB still haven’t learnt, Idle take on Netrunners in an hour and theres no coverage, infact theres been no CB based coverage all week, only Nellie and myself. However, I wont lie, I undervalue ESL. Whatever it is, maybe it’s the website, maybe its… the website but theres something that isn’t as appealing as Clanbase to me at least (I’m sure there are lots of Germans about to flame me on that comment). So lets for the time being overlook ESL and the large volume of requests coming to Crossfire for a league.
So lets asses the many suggestions we’ve had:
Create a new league/cup system
Implement the PBGUID system into the league
Form an independent cheat authority to manage all bans through the GUID system
Make the GUID system available to all leagues and servers
Those are all great things, and believe me when I say if I could click my fingers and make all of this happen, then I would. But lets split this massive project into two parts.
Forming a league:
Clanbase is what, 10 years old maybe? They’ve tried and tested many methods to get to the successful millions of users they’re at currently. Starting a new one wouldn’t just instantly work, look at Warleagues and ESL and the struggle they’ve had keeping interest up, yet CB dosent struggle. Once a user has gone somewhere and found happiness they’re unlikely to go elsewhere. Magically you’re hoping for a brand new system that everyone will switch over too? That’s a tall order, even with the traffic that Crossfire has, I think its possible it could be a success on Crossfire because we have a large volume of traffic already and they could tie into the lans perhaps? I’ve no clue.
Next and most importantly, coding this new competition. Anything that could accept the widespread use that a system like this would get, would be a MASSIVE coding project. You would need something as flexible as the Clanbase hosted cup format, that could spawm cups with group stages and leagues and knockouts and the press of a button. That is not easy, even with the existing user and clan database on Crossfire as a starting point. There is no current Crossfire coder with the time for this massive undertaking, we can be more than accommodating to anyone wishing to code such a project, however it is HUGE. If I went out onto the market to ask someone to get this system done, I would end up paying thousands of euros, amazingly Crossfire dosent have that money. You (the community) would need to find a coder that is willing to work on the love of the community, rather than money.
Running tournaments, you’d need to then find the staff for the tournaments and ladders. This I actually don’t see being a problem, a lot of people offer to help both online and lan, so I think we could get that sorted.
You cannot buy prestige. When Eurocup was 5on5 the top players were still going to play there, because you cannot replace the winning feeling of EC. That little gold cup next to your teams account actually means something. I would more than happily offer some prizes up that I could pull in, but its unlikely that it would make a major difference to the effort teams put in. I was extremely fortunate to run the Arctic eSports Challenge where first place got shuttle’s as their prize, and division two got headsets. People really enjoyed that tournament and it meant something to win it, but that was a fluke. Look at the many other tournaments that come and go that people forget about instantly.
I would love to see this happen, but the biggest hurdle is finding a coder who could put in the hours, the days, the weeks needed to build it. If anyone out there is willing, then please contact me, but I would doubt someone is, and therefore I doubt this will ever happen, as much as I’d love to see it happen.
PBGuid’s and Cheaters –
The PBGuid system has run into a big problem that it is a resource whore, we’ve had a kind offer for help here which will be explored. But the dream of having it on every server isn’t gonna happen tomorrow. Let’s pretend it did and we could ban cheaters without waiting on Clanbase, then we’d have an opportunity to really help the game regardless of what league people played in.
I would love to get 5/10 people together to asses each case and if need be ban each PBGuid. The GTV cheaters forum, is interesting but, I’m sure they’d ban someone from the Fusen list, where as CB currently wont. The Crossfire cheaters forum is very active, and that’s great but again, it dosent carry any weight. Only the PBGuid system could make a ban carry weight. If that system worked then I’d love to send out an iRC pm to 10 people and say here wanna be a cheat admin, etc and create a 100% transparent cheater database that lists evidence, ban, and so on. However we are aswell sometime away from that, because we’re still exploring how widespread the PBGuid system can be distributed.
I also don’t think CB would use the PBGuid system, as they couldn’t control the users that are banned from there which could cause more problems.
The community has once again rallied together, which is one thing no other community ever does. Lots of people I’ve never heard of before have said, they think we should do this and volunteering their time and their ideas to getting it done. I cannot stress how refreshing it is to see that stuff done, still years later.
The fact is, Crossfire is here for the users to use, and if you want to use in a new measure I wont stop you, but you’re gonna have to help us. If you want a new league, you’re gonna have to find a hero coder, otherwise its not gonna happen. (But the next lan is gonna happen, news soonish!)
Whether people are willing to believe it or not, ET does have some pull at Clanbase. The organisation is not fickle, it knows where its players are and it knows how long the mp40 baring soldier has graced Clanbase over their competitors. The decision by Clanbase to, thus far, not act on Fusen’s findings has surprised many. In reality, for an organisation of CB’s size (this applies to ESL too) banning someone on information taken from a hacked site that doesn’t prove that cheats were used in CB matches will always prove to be challenging, they have to take the information at face value, and ignore the opinion of the community. Remember, Torspo would have been banned if popular opinion had been carried through the CB cheat system, something most are glad didn’t. CB is a massive organisation, and you have to be understanding of the time they take to get to a decision, because a wrong one would have massive consequences, so they must take time to get the right one and they usually do, CB does the best job it can with the weight of the responsibility on its shoulders.
That’s all well and good you might say, but you only care about ET and you only care about the problems you face on a daily basis. You’ve seen a bunch of cheaters found out, and you want them gone. You’ve seen a PBGUID system tested and you want it to safeguard you from the cheaters. CB’s actions so far have not been met with widespread approval, infact I’ve had more pm’s in the past 24 hours about CB than I got when the 6on6 vs 5on5 debate was raging. What have they all said? “Toss, Crossfire should run a league or cup!”
For some reason people seem to undervalue ESL as an option, I’m not quite sure why. Their IPS was fantastic, especially the coverage. Chosen and Kafux put CB to shame on their level of coverage, and CB still haven’t learnt, Idle take on Netrunners in an hour and theres no coverage, infact theres been no CB based coverage all week, only Nellie and myself. However, I wont lie, I undervalue ESL. Whatever it is, maybe it’s the website, maybe its… the website but theres something that isn’t as appealing as Clanbase to me at least (I’m sure there are lots of Germans about to flame me on that comment). So lets for the time being overlook ESL and the large volume of requests coming to Crossfire for a league.
So lets asses the many suggestions we’ve had:
Create a new league/cup system
Implement the PBGUID system into the league
Form an independent cheat authority to manage all bans through the GUID system
Make the GUID system available to all leagues and servers
Those are all great things, and believe me when I say if I could click my fingers and make all of this happen, then I would. But lets split this massive project into two parts.
Forming a league:
Clanbase is what, 10 years old maybe? They’ve tried and tested many methods to get to the successful millions of users they’re at currently. Starting a new one wouldn’t just instantly work, look at Warleagues and ESL and the struggle they’ve had keeping interest up, yet CB dosent struggle. Once a user has gone somewhere and found happiness they’re unlikely to go elsewhere. Magically you’re hoping for a brand new system that everyone will switch over too? That’s a tall order, even with the traffic that Crossfire has, I think its possible it could be a success on Crossfire because we have a large volume of traffic already and they could tie into the lans perhaps? I’ve no clue.
Next and most importantly, coding this new competition. Anything that could accept the widespread use that a system like this would get, would be a MASSIVE coding project. You would need something as flexible as the Clanbase hosted cup format, that could spawm cups with group stages and leagues and knockouts and the press of a button. That is not easy, even with the existing user and clan database on Crossfire as a starting point. There is no current Crossfire coder with the time for this massive undertaking, we can be more than accommodating to anyone wishing to code such a project, however it is HUGE. If I went out onto the market to ask someone to get this system done, I would end up paying thousands of euros, amazingly Crossfire dosent have that money. You (the community) would need to find a coder that is willing to work on the love of the community, rather than money.
Running tournaments, you’d need to then find the staff for the tournaments and ladders. This I actually don’t see being a problem, a lot of people offer to help both online and lan, so I think we could get that sorted.
You cannot buy prestige. When Eurocup was 5on5 the top players were still going to play there, because you cannot replace the winning feeling of EC. That little gold cup next to your teams account actually means something. I would more than happily offer some prizes up that I could pull in, but its unlikely that it would make a major difference to the effort teams put in. I was extremely fortunate to run the Arctic eSports Challenge where first place got shuttle’s as their prize, and division two got headsets. People really enjoyed that tournament and it meant something to win it, but that was a fluke. Look at the many other tournaments that come and go that people forget about instantly.
I would love to see this happen, but the biggest hurdle is finding a coder who could put in the hours, the days, the weeks needed to build it. If anyone out there is willing, then please contact me, but I would doubt someone is, and therefore I doubt this will ever happen, as much as I’d love to see it happen.
PBGuid’s and Cheaters –
The PBGuid system has run into a big problem that it is a resource whore, we’ve had a kind offer for help here which will be explored. But the dream of having it on every server isn’t gonna happen tomorrow. Let’s pretend it did and we could ban cheaters without waiting on Clanbase, then we’d have an opportunity to really help the game regardless of what league people played in.
I would love to get 5/10 people together to asses each case and if need be ban each PBGuid. The GTV cheaters forum, is interesting but, I’m sure they’d ban someone from the Fusen list, where as CB currently wont. The Crossfire cheaters forum is very active, and that’s great but again, it dosent carry any weight. Only the PBGuid system could make a ban carry weight. If that system worked then I’d love to send out an iRC pm to 10 people and say here wanna be a cheat admin, etc and create a 100% transparent cheater database that lists evidence, ban, and so on. However we are aswell sometime away from that, because we’re still exploring how widespread the PBGuid system can be distributed.
I also don’t think CB would use the PBGuid system, as they couldn’t control the users that are banned from there which could cause more problems.
The community has once again rallied together, which is one thing no other community ever does. Lots of people I’ve never heard of before have said, they think we should do this and volunteering their time and their ideas to getting it done. I cannot stress how refreshing it is to see that stuff done, still years later.
The fact is, Crossfire is here for the users to use, and if you want to use in a new measure I wont stop you, but you’re gonna have to help us. If you want a new league, you’re gonna have to find a hero coder, otherwise its not gonna happen. (But the next lan is gonna happen, news soonish!)
and that sentance i typed could also mean that someone could point a coder in tosspots' direction? no?
And the hero coder as you bring it out, who coded the CB-site?, who did the ESL? and warleagues? Do some research on the area and I'm sure it wont take a huge effort to make this possible on crossfire.
And again, the simpleness of CB, as well as Crossfire makes it popular to visit again and again. By making crossfire the head of the community with the peoples opinion in centrum and maybe with help from gtv.org and other site, perhaps some Cod-site i think Crossfire could be the leading organization within the eSport-area with the games involved.
It's simply awful
qcon money @ ?
ET,Crossfire,Toss gogogo! ;)
Very nice read indeed, even me as non-comp player will support this.
If indeed X-fire can pull this one off, respect WILL be earned, even from outside the ET-community.
And if not, ATLEAST an IMPORTANT signal will be given towards CB that
the ET community stand their ground on certain IMPORTANT matters
namely, KICK and BAN if PROVEN GUILTY and keep the game CLEAN.
We as pub players don't like cheaters anymore than u lot do, the only
difference is that we just change server and TRY to have fun on another one
as where u guys KNOW a certain player has been caught and you and ur clan have to put up with it because CB is reluctant to take action.
e.g. www.get-liga.de or others
they already have a coded system and a clue about the problems and the needs such a projekt brings along.
i dont think that this would be enough to replace cb. it still needs alot of work. but imo its better to start with sth than to start with nothing.
Nice read btw, you really have some points there.
nice read
IXDE IXDE
anyway nice written TosspoT
he has lots of time
but he's so fucking lazy :D
http://www.gamersnation.co.uk/Competition/op=compView/event=19.html
It's not as sophisticated as CB of course, as it's not been in development for anything like as long and has only 1 coder, me!
Plus, it's a module for a Content Management System called DragonFly, making it work "standalone" or within Crossfire's code-base may or may not be a difficult task.
great ideas. ibet you started writing this after my journalzZz
i would like to help (right now im not expert though) but taLa hates me & my C# :(
GO XFIRE!!!!!!1111141
btw Tosspot, just talk to the 'EC skilled' teams right now and I'm sure you will come up with smthg.... i bet everyone will follow you then...
... the money in fact.
It would cost a lot to have a site like cb made...
How about asking the active community just to donate 5-10 euro/pound whatever to support such a league.
I mean, if they want this, they should do sth for making it real.
I'd donate 5 euro at least for such a league for sure.
And if 100 users do so, we would have 500 euro...
first of all, you have to ask a coder if he would do this and how much money he wants for it.
Then ask the community.
or search different ways of getting the money...
the least problem would be the admins, and the clans, which would play in this league.
I guess all the EC/OC Teams would love to play in a league without cheaters...
sry bout shitty english
I think asbout one half of them is active and one third of them is willed to pay for something.
I'm not sure why but I just hate the thing, it is in need of a makeover, that's for sure.
Nevertheless, like you said, the work they have done so far is nothing short of fantastic.
PS. CAN'T WAIT FOR THAT FUCKING LAN! (let's hope we qualify >:D)
"Remember, Torspo would have been banned if popular opinion had been carried through the CB cheat system, something most are glad didn’t."
the fusen bust has nothing to do with oppinions, its pure facts. They all cheated and everyone (most) caught admitted right away.
CF would make a fantastic platform for such an idea, but as you say, the coding...
And Toss just relating to your point "most of the cups are burried memories", I dont think this is a argument the xfire-cup/league will be faced, because xfire has a totally different background, here are like 1000 unique users everyday, so if they going to inform themselves about the current community situation they are automatically "confronted" with recent happenings in the league/cup, this also works vice versa.
So in my eyes there is no better date to emancipate from the hegemonian-system of clanbase. The voice of the people, the interest for this community has been regardlessly rejected, this is the reason to overthrow clanbase.
May my words be kind of empathic and overdone, but I hope they are still marking my points.
Now I like to quote something from wikipedia.org:
A community usually refers to a group of people who interact and share certain things as a group
Is clanbase according to this part of the community? CB keeps as stated earlier ignoring the voice of the people....
And to the dedicated coder; what about kendle ?
Take his project gamer-nation as the skeleton and "just" give a new skin with modern and more improtanly user friendly appeareance. And to ensure that this product will contain the xfire-philosophy, maka tala the protégé of kendle :]
Toss remember, Crossfire is the Esperanto of the Community, we ALL do speak the same laguage with the same interest, to strengthen the Community.
Viva la Crossfire!!!!!
Viva la revolution!!!1!
then you can just change layout and fix stuff :o)
So if you ask me you won't pull this of. And if CB is smart (and wants to play the bastard), they let you assemble your money and code the shit, and make their changes then so you got double loss...
My second point not to do this is that you are running Crossfire here. Crossfire is a community-site, not a league-site. Meaning that if you would even want to make this work. You should open up an entire new leaguesite and NOT implement the league-stuff in here because you would get hundreds of journals and forumtopics whining about shit happening in the league's and cups you're running. And that's not something I'm looking forward to in happening on this site.
But as I said. I don't think manny people will agree with me on this one but I'd like to hear a response from tosspot tho.