UPDATE3: Good monitor or not? | Journals | Crossfire

It's ok I guess if you're not going 120hz, but I'm sure you can find something better for that price.

There's always better! But it's good!

not 120hz so no

I'm using the exact same now. It's a good one, but I paid for it on computerland.nl for 120,- euro or something like that. So no, you can get better monitors for that price.

i don't know, but i just heard i got a ticket to lowlands :))))))))))

Nice! I'm heading to Pukkelpop in 2 days :)

Parent

i believe

stib is going there :PPPP

Parent

no 120hz no win

im playing r_mode 3 and 85 hz atm :OOOO)

i win

i have been playing on rmode 3 + 60 hz nearly 5 years, i beat you :-|

Parent

120hz = smoother and better for gaming, but it will cost a bit more than your budget, over here the 120hz lcd's cost from £209-£228, dunno the price in euros.

120hz is only usefull for 3D

Parent

so useless?

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your eye cant see the difference between 60 or 120 Hz

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on et the damagefeedback is almost gone with 100hz or higher

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I have 60 Hz and play same shit as on crt 8D

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ive got a crt that can get 120 hz on 1024x768. But because I also play lan and dont want to suck there... I play at only 75 display refresh 1024x768. Only use the high refreshrate on cod4

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ye idd, when you go to lan it somehow makes the difference

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yea cause you dont have ur own screen :/

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well i can/

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no? average humans can see dazzles up to 72Hz

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the brain can "see that", not the eye

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try a lot higher.

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recent(2010-06-16) short-term-exposure tests have concluded that 72Hz is where the average human do not experience a solid dazzle effect.

SCILL ISSUE #10 SEE

Parent

What is the source of your statements (url plz) and what do you mean with "solid dazzle effect".

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science illustrated, "flimmerfri", absence of flicker, wasnt about computer monitors though but I am pretty sure that makes no difference to the eye :-pp

Parent

What is a solid dazzle effect though, because that's pretty much the key value here.

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what Hz is the lowest and the highest you have ever had at your monitors?

Parent

Lowest 50 or 60
Highest 200

Parent

Well, you will notice easier what flicker is if you go from high to low Hz. You shouldn't need to go lower than 72 Hz if you got a pair of average eyes to notice it. Also if you you see one of the old movies where you can see a real, active, monitor you will see it.

Parent

The flicker you are talking about is actually something entirely different. The flicker on a tv/crt monitor is the electron gun that is noticable at lower refresh rates. That has nothing to do with the fact that the human eye can easily see the difference between a screen that's updated 60 times per second versus a screen that's updated 120 times per second.

Parent

I do not disagree to that there is a noticeable difference, just saying that AAAS claims that the solid dazzle effect disappears for the average human at 72 Hz.
If you are wondering what they specifically ment by "solid dazzle effect" I do not exactly know since I can't find that mag and it was merely my translation of "en gedigen flimmer effekt".

Parent

They probably meant the flickering of the electron gun in CRT's. In that case they may well be right that the average human doesn't notice a difference in flickering between 72hz or higher.

As for games pumping out 125fps being played on 60hz or on 120hz, you bet your ass that any human will notice the difference between that.

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Whoever told you that is very badly informed.

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Actually dynamics (such as watching a movie) will look pretty much the same on 60hz and 120hz, but if you had a black screen that would turn completely white for a 60th of a second and then black again you would probably notice it. Same for a 120th of a second, well, maybe?

Parent

Movies have very low frame-rates so of course it will not matter whether you watch a movie on a 60hz screen or a 120hz screen. (unless it's CRT but that's where the flickering comes in, but that's a totally different topic)

Parent

Games are also dynamics, but in fact the smooth feeling probably comes from motion blur etc. so it's not really present in ET.

I don't know and I don't care, I have some shit 22" widescreen LCD and I'm comfortable with it. Of course if I happen to come across a good CRT or a 120Hz widescreen LCD (because widescreen > all) I'll take it and use it, but I'm not going to invest my limited funds to such things.

Parent

QuoteGames are also dynamics, but in fact the smooth feeling probably comes from motion blur etc. so it's not really present in ET.

The fact that you use the word probably already is a hint that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. There is no motion blur in ET. The smooth feeling (if any) comes purely from proper equipment and settings. In this case a game running 125 fps stable and a screen that is able to display 120 frames per second.

Parent

I'd like to know wich game you can run at constant 125fps, what is your config, and how much did you pay for it.

Parent

- ET Easy but you will whine about it not being recent enough.
- CoD4 easy

Doesn't cost much either. You can buy a pc that can pump out 120fps for cod4 for instance for under a 1000 bucks.

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So im probably a noob which doesnt know how to set his hardware and software, because on COD4 i dont have constant 120fps. And im gonna whine about COD4 aswell, its not a game who claim a lot of power to run decently.

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I get a mostly stable 250FPS in CoD4 and my PC is a few years old already.

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AA4X and all settings at max? Really need demos.

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well if you want fps/smoothness why would you play with anti-aliasing on? o.o

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Because i dont play COD4 that serious and since i think its a nice looking game, i like to have the best quality as i can, but wihtout loosing fps.

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Do you play at 1024x768 or why do you need 4xAA?

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1680*1050 and 1920*1080

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2xAA should be enough for such high resolution methinks..

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True, there is no motion blur in ET, which is why I said "the smooth feeling probably comes from motion blur,[snip]so it's not really present in ET".

Parent

Like I said. You used the word probably because you have no idea what you are talking about. Since, like you stated, you have a shit monitor you probably never seen a really smooth running ET 125FPS @ 120hz so you can't really judge.

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Are you absolutely sure you understand what I was meaning?

Parent

I think I have a pretty good idea of what you were trying to say. With "Movies being dynamic" and "games are also dynamics" you probably meant to say "moving images on a screen".

Parent

Quote by MeActually dynamics (such as watching a movie) will look pretty much the same on 60hz and 120hz

Here I was comparing 60hz to 120hz with movies.

Quote by MeGames are also dynamics, but in fact the smooth feeling probably comes from motion blur etc. so it's not really present in ET.

Here I was talking about motion blurred games on 60hz, and then said that the feeling of smoothness is not really present in ET on such refresh rates.

Parent

This conversation is going nowhere. It's no use to compare movies with games. They are totally different and can not be compared. Movies run at a constant LOW framerate which is always lower than the refreshrate of your monitor, so of course it will not make a difference to watch a movie on a 60hz LCD or a 120hz LCD.

Now take a game. ET for instance, running at a stable 125 fps.. WAY higher than the usual 60hz that most LCD's run on. Using a 120hz LCD will give you a lot LOT smoother picture than the same 125fps on a 60hz screen. Forget motion blur etc.. has nothing to do with this.

Parent

Umm, that's what I said. Most modern games have motion blur which makes them feel smooth on lower refreshrates.

Carry on.

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no its not useless
http://www.digitalversus.com/samsung-syncmaster-2233rz-p358_4495_36.html

The mac daddy of review sites

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No it isn't. There are a ton of competitive FPS players that use a CRT or a 120hz LCD because it's just so much smoother and better than a 60hz LCD.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate

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please don't argue about something you don't understand and then claim wikipedia as a reliable source

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" lol "

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Quote120hz is only usefull for 3D

You clearly don't understand, stop being a condescending prick it only makes you look like a moron.

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tell me then

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Your eye does not perceive the world on a frame by frame basis. You do not see each frame in your head, your eye is working with a continuous stream of light. The higher display refresh of the monitor the more your head is tricked into thinking you are seeing a continuous image. Therefore => higher is better. Over 200Hz (or in layman's terms a new frame every 5ms), would probably not bring many benefits, most LCD back lights operate at ~200Hz I believe and I doubt we'd notice the difference if we increased that. I can tell you though that I do notice a difference between 120Hz and 180Hz, it is definitely wrong to assume that their is no benefit to more than 60Hz.

If you use a CRT at 60Hz you can see clearly that the image flickers, this doesn't happen on LCD because LCD doesn't refresh on a frame by frame basis, LCD refreshes by changing the state of individual pixels, your LCD could operate at 10Hz and you still wouldn't see flickering. You would however notice the difference when you used the LCD, much like you see a difference between 60Hz and 120Hz.

Parent

and Krosan is looking for a LCD...

Parent

Yes, and your eyes/mind can perceive a difference between 60Hz and 120Hz, quite a big difference. If you tried playing on an LCD operating at 30Hz it would feel awful, much like 60Hz feels awful after 120Hz.

Parent

I know that but most graphics cards cand handle steady 120fps... The only way to get 120Hz useful in that case is to turn it manually to interpolated (not sure about that word). For example: you got Crysis running at 30FPS and you got a 120Hz LCD, the LCD will duplicate frames to make it smoother but it wont be real 120FPS showing.

Parent

That all depends on the system's specifications. With proper specifications you can easily get a stable 120FPS on any game, but that's not the point. The point is that the human eye is very well capable of seeing the difference. Whoever told you otherwise is really incorrectly informed.

Parent

Yeah with a config wich costs 3000€... (Im talking about recents games.)

Parent

Even with recent games you do not need a 3000 euro PC to be able to have a stable 120 FPS. Good hardware helps but it also depends on settings and as you and I both know, competitive gamers usually do not use very high graphic settings, so reaching a stable 120fps is really not that hard nor expensive.

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True. But i was more thinking about max settings than competition ones.

Parent

Sure, then you'd need pretty good hardware. But again, that wasn't the point of this discussion. You came with arguments such as;

- 120hz is only usefull for 3D
- your eye cant see the difference between 60 or 120 Hz
- the brain can "see that", not the eye

and you are very very wrong if you believe that.

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Come over to my house and you can see the difference of 120 hertz and 60 hertz when playing ET :D.

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yes we all play ET at 30fps

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ET is a 7 year old game dude... -,- Im talking about recent games.

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thx for this info :)

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I'm considering using my new whiteboard to draw him a diagram because I'm not sure he understands. Oh and I still haven't used a 120Hz LCD, really want to see if it can compare to my CRT. Might splash out at Christmas if I end up doing any kind of gaming after I move out.

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go on son

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I had the iiyama vision master pro 454 @ 120hz for years and the main reason for not switching to an LCD for gaming was 60hz.

I have an ACER 120hz LCD right now and it's pretty close to 120hz on my old CRT. Quite smooth indeed :)

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Dus 120hz LCD is het wel waard? =)

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absoluut.

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Nog iets waar ik speciaal op moet letten als ik een LCD scherm koop? :P

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1. 120hz op native resolutie
2. minimaal 1920x1080 (fullhd)
3. inputlag (reviews lezen)
4. kan het 4:3 materiaal in 4:3 weergeven of gaat ie het naar 16:9 dan wel 16:10 stretchen
5. Design. (tja, je moet em wel mooi vinden he)
6. En de prijs ofcoz

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Jammer dat die Noorse sites slechte info's geven =( Kan de resolutie vinden, Syncmaster P2450H zat ik aan te denken, niet zo heel erg duur maar wss wel 60hz :P Schijnt niet zo goed te zijn nu ik reviews lees :P

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60hz imo.

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Yep's schijnt ook groenig beel te geven bij games/films. Speel nu met een JWS LCD1975B 19" Widescreen (Kan er HELEMAAL geen info over vinden @ google :D) Hij is beter als de vorige LCD die ik had.

Parent

I do keep hearing good things, but at least for now I don't really need it and I can only hope the price goes down the longer I wait. I was a fairly early adopter of the whole widescreen LCD thing and I paid a lot for it, not that I regret it considering I use this far more than my CRT and prefer it (except for gaming of course)

Also that CRT is one of the best! Sucks that they're so hard to come by (although I think I might even prefer my current CRT, just a little)

Parent

Yup, very good CRT indeed. I Still have it, just not hooked up anymore. I do prefer the 120hz over the iiyama crt now though, simply because the screen on an LCD is a lot sharper than on a CRT.

If you go for one then go for a 24 inch full hd (or wuxga or higher). There are currently 22inch models that do 120hz as well, but have a lower resolution of 1680x1050.

I believe ViewSonic and LG (maybe samsung as well, can't remember) are bringing out 24 inch 120hz soonish. Perhaps wait till then and see what the prices will do in a couple weeks.

Parent

What about the two in my topic header? Those are less than 24"

Parent

Both have a resolution of 1680x1050. I wouldn't buy them, but that's because I need a high resolution monitor for software development reasons. If you can be happy with a lower resolution and watch movies not in Full HD but a little higher than 720p then those monitors will probably do fine.

I haven't read any reviews of those monitors though as they never interested me due to the lower resolution to begin with, so I can't properly advise you which of the two is best and if these are even options to consider.

Parent

And for a budget up to 200 and maybe 300 if necessary, what would you advise me (I also develop but don't need to watch movies on it)?

Parent

I bought my Acer GD245HQ for 319 euro's. Currently you can pick one up in Tilburg for € 308.21.

http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/252940/acer-gd245hqbid.html?orderField=price&orderSort=asc

Oh and just FYI, if you are running a game on it that is not running in the native 1920x1080 resolution (for instance I run ET in r_mode 8), you have to make custom-resolutions with a refresh rate of 120hz in windows first, before you can use that resolutin in the game running at 120hz.

Parent

But you're saying it has inputlag?

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It does, but no to the extend that it's horrible.

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i can see you updated your budget :)

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Just a little bit, I hope to get a cheap one on ebay or anywhere else :|

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have you used it? i clearly see that you didnt

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never heard of that model...

3d monitors ROCK!

yo dawg I heard you like 3D monitors so we put what already is in 3d in to a 3d monitor so you can see 3d while you see 3d

image: xzibit

Parent

3d monitors reach easily 125 hz @ full resolution!

PS: My proxy is blocking your pic

":D"

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my crt reaches 160hz @ 800x600 and I paid nothing for it

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What you get on full resolution?

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1600x1200 @ 80hz

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Understand what I'm saying now?

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not rly cuz I never need the full resolution :DDD
1024x768 @ 120hz for gayming & 1280x1024 @ 90hz for desk + singleplayer games

":D"

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Imagine everything with full resolution! :O

":D"

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I've got this one:

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/prods/Monitors/24inchMonitors/Novatech/2249A.html

Pretty nice, similar spec to what you posted but a bit cheaper!

isn't input delay the most important factor in LCDs? though you have to independently research that stuff, it won't be found in tech sheets :F

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I heard similar things..

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whats that?

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I guess it depends on what you want the monitor for, but pretty much aye. Never really bothered researching or bothered testing (cba hooking everything up) before buying this monitor. Was just relatively cheap for what it is, a big improvement over my 17" TFT but then there's a diff between running ET on this and what it was like on my old 19" CRT :(

Parent

Asus VG236H

image: 150_8757_2

EDIT: nvm too expensive for your budget

That's not an edit

Parent

important !dont pay attention to those "2ms" and "8000000:1" headlines because they all have their own standards and in the end they are all bullshitting you!

anyway look for reviews and go to a store with a bunch of monitors and try to see what u like the most :)

yea contast is pure marketing
but ms gtg is "universal" standard

Parent

both of them are good, different ppl say different about their input lag so it's hard to say for sure. My bro has viewsonic and pretty satisfied with it, tho as for me i feel miserable input lag comparing to my CRT(but not that it affects much, it's rly small)
the only minus is that they arent fullhd

pfff, you wouldn't have liked the aef stage, i'm not sure what it was but up there those screens had fucking horrible input lag, i think it might've been something to do with the video matrix switches :\, literally had to learn to track infront of people

Parent

well i heard noctis reported of some noticiable input lag with viewsonic at some of the lans(dreamhack 2010 i believe) dunno what conditions were there but honestly i cant say that my brother's one is worse than monitor like your 22'' asus for example(which he had before), and 120hz even feels more responsive due to average 8ms faster refresh and has less ghosting like mouse pointer trail(i must say that isnt less important than input lag)

Parent

Expensive... I've got a 24" For 150 euro :p

1920x1080
HD Ready :)
120 HZ

link?

Parent

Was an offer tho. Maybe get lucky and try Scan:

http://www.scan.co.uk

Or check these out:

http://www.scan.co.uk/Shop/Computer-Hardware/All/Monitors-Television/LCD-TVs-22-28

Try to get lucky..

Parent

A 24 inch full hd screen running @ 120hz for 150 euro? Don't think so. Not in 2010 anyway.

Besides that, 1920x1080 = full hd and not "HD Ready" so that could've already given you a clue that it's BS.

Parent

hmm well i am running it 1920x1080 :o but yes i did buy it 150 euros :)

tho, for the price it is. I'm very happy with it.

Parent

Oh I believe you could pick up a 1920x1080 monitor for 150 euro's, no doubt about that, but I highly doubt it is running over a dual-link DVI cable @ 120hz :P

Parent

+1 otherwise i'm pretty pissed at the £280 i paid for mine :)

Parent

so which one would you buy from those 2?

Parent

I said the same thing to Krosan a little higher up in this journal;

"I haven't read any reviews of those monitors though as they never interested me due to the lower resolution to begin with, so I can't properly advise you which of the two is best and if these are even options to consider."

Parent

oh sorry .. didn't read that but thx :)

Parent

2nd one is nice. got insta skillboost!

win.. win!

http://www.acer.nl/acer/productv.do?LanguageISOCtxParam=nl&kcond61e.c2att101=73732&sp=page16e&ctx2.c2att1=3&link=ln438e&CountryISOCtxParam=NL&ctx1g.c2att92=185&ctx1.att21k=1&CRC=2210658028

very expensive imo

Parent

That's the one I have. Pretty good monitor. Has some input-lag but not to the extend that it's horrible.

Parent

Have you actually noticed input lag on it? I never did :s

Parent

Not that I can tell but the review's I've seen showed a 0 to 15 ms input lag (Depending on what was being refreshed on screen).

Parent

It's expensive but double better as others.. :)
you should get this..

Parent

Get the viewsonic imo

what about wait till BenQ and zowiegear show their new gaming monitor?

do u have a laptop?

LOL i got the same probs no joke i am also thinking of buying one of those but dunno which one..
the prizes are nearly the same :/

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