What makes a map good?
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31 Jan 2011, 13:19
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Journals
Callout to all those brainy hot shots:
What makes a map good? What aspects or design features in for example supply make it so popular in competition?
With enough decent answers & discussion a column might be coming up!
What makes a map good? What aspects or design features in for example supply make it so popular in competition?
With enough decent answers & discussion a column might be coming up!
Rather play maps like adler, erdenberg, frost, ..
frost = corners
adler = lotto
And missile_b3 is a nice map as well. :)
- limited number of possible routes
- balance!
Ps: we did 3v3 against dusty and co yesterday on it, he liked it. So did zerom and wuff who came suddenly on pub server after it got released to test it
And yesterday we did 6v6 against fixed! (with ezbh)
Rtcw = alive
they don't actually grow you know, because they're not real :P
on the other hand, tunnel on supply has its advantage too - ability to nade middle-floor. just these mines there are annoying :D
it has its disadvantages, idd, but has its advantages too, as I said, nades (can be dodged, ye, but not always + when you are rifle you can place there some rnades they dont expect), provides relatively safe way to get in (upper tunnel is good, especially when you know how to work with it according to spawntimes), in 3o3 even more helpful x)
Then again, neither of those things exist in sw_goldrush_te and it still is a very popular map so I could be wrong.
E: Also, docrun objective is nice.
like the supply jump or the jump at radar side.
places where you can strafejump and gain massive speed.
sadly the conversion of assault to ET really sux :/ work on it and u can sort out a great map
- 3 entrance max
- lean corner
- short spawntime
never liked village in et myself but there you go
Someone need to work on it and we can have a really good map
- 3-4 stages
- some hills and mountains etc. (not braundorf 0,0 mpitch style)
- atleast 2 possible ways of attacking (like radar CP and main)
- multiple defense setups
- not too many corners and small alleys
- chance to recap a flag or destroy cp (ice or radar)
- I personally prefer doc runs (either 2 doc runs like radar or doc run + other obj like grush)
- well balanced spawntimes and spawn ways/timing to reach certain spots (att+def)
- use of multiple classes
- stages a bit seperated from each other so defense got a chance to setup (like radar again)
- fast times around 4 minutes, average time about 6-10, fullhold 12-15
Just some random ideas. Probably forgot a lot of things.
Good maps: Goldrush, Supply, Radar, Ice (the setup, it's not that good in ET)
Bad maps: Braundorf (!!) and most of the other indoor/corner camp maps
+ bremen
+ hog_b12
+ missile ( 6on6 )
+ reactor
+ snatch ( 6on6 )
+ sw_oasis ( 6on6 )
didnt try sw_battery but looks like nice ;(
Though with some changes I agree, it could be nice. If the defenders couldn't drive the train back and no mines at the barrier etc.
That would be something i would like, and with all the adjustments in the last couple of years and 5on5 railgun is hard to defend. In 2004 with all xp rewards and massive mines etc it was a lot easier. Another adjustment would be, make the train faster, or unable to get back.
With those few mines we got left, it's no need to remove them, you just need one guy to sacrifice himself to lift the switch. And at the depot yard you can get there from many different routes, so those 4 mines won't hurt a lot.
*3-4 Stages, where axis can put up a good defense on atleast 2
(I mean like Grush: First setup, than you've got the barrierdefense, but you might get rushed by allies so you can't set up, Gold defense is again a good setup, and truckdefense can be rushed/stable defensed.)
*Axis can gain ground again (like radar/frost/Bremen.. destroying cp/recap)
*Balanced ways into the objectif (I mean, not like delivery: First is open, second is corners, walls walls walls. Its more fun when you can attack true a tunnel, up, and also just main, like supply. I can't really explain this one well :)
*Not just one Bunker vs Open terrain (Delivery first stage)
* Tank or Truck has a fixed time to follow his route, that gives you calculations, time to setup, different possibilities.
*Docrun
*Maps where you need tax, Its awesome if you win a game by using great tax, and so win against a better-aiming team.
Etc..
Good maps: Grush, Radar, Supply (I like the stages and the chance of building up a good attack in different ways (west east main eastjump westjump mainrush etc), Oasis..
Bad maps: B4 & Delivery
e: didnt want to reply to you lol :)
- Stage based
- not to much hiding places (like maps where you can camp on roofs -> dubrovnik)
- not to big (long running ways)
- balanced
- fps !!! Should be stable not like stalingrad :P
Best maps in this game are goldrush and radar, also bremen is good.
Agree with urtier in most parts.
Missing many details) e.g: 1st pic, cp gate is missing.
take Erdenberg as exemple, it starts to be played quite often now, so even if you create a new map, if the community like it, it'll be played more often etc.. so we still can create new maps and stuff :)
- not too large like missile!
- Not too confusing with going back and forth doing objective here and there. Just make a clear line through a map of objectives that have to be done.
My favourite:
1st stage: Capable Flag/plant nearby that secures flag.
2nd stage: build/plant
3rd stage: docrun
- Default time to finish the map in a match between equal teams: 6-9 minutes, so a bit the same as grush/supply.
routes:
for every stage atleast 1 open route & 1 corridor/tunnel. Never make more then 3 routes, unless it's like the vent on adler on first stage or something that takes really long (spawnway on adler after cp build).
The routes should be somewhat apart or atleast so that it is not easy for the defense to chokehold both (unless it's a stage where you have to get docs/gold/parts). However, rotation must be somewhat possible.
defensive structures:
the defensive structures in supply are brilliant:
- Either a house where bottom floor can be secured (need an objective there though because else it will be staircamp).
- Walls above plantable objectives always work great, however it could be nice to see the plantable be semi inside like the bottom route plants on baserace.
don't do's:
- too much corridors and 90 degree corners. This ruins braundorf for me, same pretty much goes for delivery but it's not as bad as braundorf.
- make the map too dark
- grass
- for me: tank (slows the play down too much)
do's:
- bushes
- crates (usually very usefull for defense against smg, certain death when the rifle comes in.)
- truck! (faster and still you need some nice teamplay to defend this, but also for the attacking team to move this)
- not too much scenery to keep fps high.
- atleast one (or two) parts where there is some use for a fdops -> open area or closed area where you need ammo to stay for a longer time. just for the record: i'm not a fdops.
depends on how it's worked out:
- possible defensive build like wall next to keyroom in bremen.
- places for landmines
but yea, it's just my personal opinion :)
Still Frostbite all time favourite eventho the obj room could be a bit bigger. and imo works better 6on6 than 5on5
for instance, when playing with
however, when i am mixing i prefer maps like adlernest, they are generally more fun if you do not have tactics
but to be honest, its a bit lotto about whether a map will be good or not, but its good if you make it look nice and dont try anything too ridiculous (like axis attacking or smth)
-spawns with 2-3 exits (doesn't seem to be usual these days :x)
-one fixed spawnpoint each team, and a shared one (such as the one on gr)
-in case of obj run a way that is by far shorter for the defending pary to reach the obj destination
-ways of 10-8 sec to the obj for attackers (on which they not necissarily have to pass defenders spawn)
-multiple ways to attack, whilst at least 2 have to be not easily coverable by a single person (such as small doorways), and one which has a direct disadvantage towards the others (west on supply, road to main gate on radar, middle gate oasis,tunnel oasis)
-avarge amount of obj you can camp behind
-different level of terrain, highgrounds (as on radar or supply)
-at some point open field (courtyard gr, cp supply, radar, oasis flag defence more or less)
- First stage ends with blowing some entrance, second stage should be a docrun.
- Two ways to attack. If there has to be a third way then the defence of it should be easily combined with the main- or side defence. ( Goldrush first stage, supplydepot last stage).
This third way should also be easily defendable on its own, think about a long narrow corridor or mines for example.
- More outdoors than indoors like Urtier said. Outdoor just gives a nicer feeling and it also gives space for creative minds, compared to the cornerleaning generation we have at the moment.
- Some anti m_pitch 0.015001 measures like hills or stairs. You can seperate the good from the great aimers by just speccing them on radar.
- Simple spawntimes. ( 30 & 20 for example)
- No option for the attacking team to just run over the entire map after one good push in the first stage. On the other hand no stages that are so far apart that it becomes a math game where the defending team just has to hold each stage for x minutes to win.
Some hybrid map would be good, like supply and goldrush where you can take the middle stage immediatly after the first one if you play it well.
- Minor side-objectives like a command post, a switch thats need to be turned on, a truck that needs to be repaired but cannot be defended properly.
- No swift or very long maps. Oasis is the prime example of double fullholds where Frostbite could be an example of a map being over in less than four minutes. The average time should be around 8/9 minutes.
- The option to cornerlean should be present in the map but not everywhere like it is in Delivery. The amount of places you can cornerlean in radar is perfect in my opinion, but maybe that's just because of my playing style.
- Multiple spawns for both Allies and Axis of which only one in both teams should be susceptible to spawnrape.
- This might be harder to realize but allow some trickplays. I'm thinking about a trickjump that gets someone to point A 10 seconds faster.
- Great open fields with a minimum number of places to hide, like Radar.
My two cents.
ow wait, not...
but yeah i agree with you
if you were looking for a map suitable best for aimers, delivery
Uneven terrain is a lot better. Stairs are ridicilously buggy in ET. When you're descending them and trying to shoot something you can't hit shit because the game thinks you're constantly falling and you get the same amount of spread you do when jumping.
good example: supply
bad example: frostbite
supply is popular because everybody knows roughly how to play it (not many knows how to play it for real though)
delivery isn't because only a few teams know how to play it, first stage is a bit irritating at times tho :l (but unique!!)
i mean, if you take some random mix of random EC players for a random 3on3, only maps they can barely play is gr adler supply and that's about it. those are the maps considered 'good'..
delivery is also a good map but that won't help because people can't play it nor theyre arsed to prac it. the same goes for anything new, nobody cares whether the map is great or awful if it's new. likes of escape, hog and whatmore could become next supply if players were even slightly interested in new maps and practicing them.
just give the new maps a go if somebody has seen the effort making them - _-
on the topic: map is good (liked) if it has several stages which cannot be recapped easily (supply), elevation differencies and is varying. i dunno, just map another supply with different terrain ._. or a combination of gr sd and adler:
[/3v3]
first stage is hardly unique. its like supply (maybe a bit harder to def bottom entrance cause of lacking cover space tot he left and right) but with longer ways to get there for defender. thats why we dont see the first stage being held for that long.
ur argument just goes to show how little supply first stage is balanced.
i havent played deli much in 5v5 but i think it's horrible
in 5on5 you have more of the attacking team avi to be rapeing instead of running for the obj part of the game.
thats the essence of ET to me.
get stupid fullspawn or dont communicate enough so aeveryone selfkills should lead to a loose.
if it doesnt matter how many soldiers are on the field i could just go play cod4 where i pwn everything while my team idles the spawn.
3rd route not as much of a d-tour as on grush.
3rd route not as close as on 1st stage supply top.
like braundorf. 3 seperate ways, a side only used for 5o5/6o6, chance to recap, not too long way from spawn to objective, enough edges (but not as campy as deli), 1 cap (OR blow = "do they have engr?"-comms) and 1 blow objective, [...].
to this date i still dont understand why people love supply so much as it is a pretty aweful map to attack on against skilled teams. too many tight spots with no alternative route.
whenever supply is 2nd map it will go to a 3rd cause its gonna be fullholded twice.
e: i read tho that slowing elemets (like the truck on supply) are wanted so that a single mistake does not loose you the game. i could not agree less with that. i want people to have to think about how the game is going at all times. if you think ur uber cool and u need to backrape and stuff to get ur k/d going you better be rambo or ur gonna screw up the whole defense for your team. this is the way i want it to be.
not some "do whatever you want" style game.
you defend your position responsibly, communicate frags, downs and enemy movement -> you win
you go all "call of duty" on their ass -> you loose
this is (teambased) ET afterall.
intense map with no room for fuck ups.
btw on rtcw version ive added the pipe door controls, which means the map would take a tad longer and even more balanced imo
also st is 30 / 30 unlike on et 30 / 20
However in RtCW your longest maptime is 10 minutes if I'm correct and in ET you got 15 minutes on some maps. So it could get a bit long for some people. Also it makes people think of different ways to attack or defend as some teams might develop some counter strats quickly. Atleast from my little RtCW experience that was mostly the case (well, in theory... :P)
but still, i think this pipe change is pretty good, but if it wouldnt work i could easily remove it since i figured out how to make teamdoors work on rtcw, which was the original problem why i made those pipe doors in the first place, but it seems this is also good even if allies can go through the basement door
but i'll make the 3 teamdoors at docs obj really that allies cant get through
and about doing obj: played 3v3 yesterday and dusty beat us at 2mins time so if you fuckup you still got pretty short time :p
You would took the first stage of radar, breach the main / side and it would lead to tc_base routes and you continued from there. For example.
First stage from reactor, breach the gate, then it would go supply after that.
Etc etc. Maybe make a megamap, ride the truck through supply to get the ammo (whoops, it says "gold" at the crate) to the tank, it would blow up the wall in adlernest.
Carry on.
atleast for publics ;)
hunkmegs error?
why do you hate the map so badly ?
it's a small indoor map with lots of leaning and camping, the terrain is so limited unlike supply and goldrush where you got so many routes and areas. On delivery after grabbing flag you could essentially hold your crosshair straight and move it from side to side and be succesful which is hilarious. Some people seem to like it but I have no idea why. So I guess I'll have to live with it.
:XD
Adler seems to be okay.
Long time ago I played a map called 2guns (on Efterlyst) and it was really enjoyable.
- multi class map (covert satchel, command post,...)
- based on teamplay
shortaimranges + longaimranges
mines