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religion is the humans death

!

Parent

actually, killing in the name of religion is.

Most western(christian) and eastern religions(buddhism) teaches their followers moral values that encourages feeling responsible for other beings, such as love and compassion.

Thing is; Islamic culture did not have the moral storm christianity faced(where they hanged, killed and blackmailed people in the name of their god -> catholics ftw). Nowadays christianity in europe is not (genarally speaking) demoralizing or spreading hatred like they used to do in the middle ages.

The islam is still enforcing rules and morals from the koran which is made 2000 years ago, with the morals completly different(slavery was even ok then). THATS the big problem. A lot of imams and islamic fanatics try to carry out the morals and specific rules which are stated in the koran, not seeing them in perspective in the present, whereas the christians do.

Untill we face(and non-fundamental imams) islam people with morals which are normal to us and they adapt to it, they wont be accepted as equals.

Parent

that is a bold statement boy! I think it is fair to say that without religion all that would be is death and destruction

Parent

And how do you prove such a bold statement? Its more the other way round, if we would stop believing nonsense without any evidence for it, there would be much less destruction and war and killing going on.

Parent

wasn't religion was the first who introduced education?

Parent

Im not sure when the first schools were built or when people began formally teaching each other, but Platon`s academy f.e., maybe the first ever university of sorts was founded in 387 B.C.

Parent

i mean regular education, not only for higher society etc.

Parent

Schools in medieval times were led by the church yes, education was in their hands during that time and there are still lots of religious schools (partly financed by the state) these days. But you just have to look at what gets taught there and what gets taught in a secular school to realise that religion is not the reason we are so well educated.
Most improvements in science and in our everyday lives and morals have made their way despite religion not because of it.
Like i said, i have no idea when the first common schools were built, but our everyday knowledge is hardly thanks to religion.
Also i doubt plato´s academy was only for the higher society, although i would have to look that up.

Parent

Normally I like to agree with those sentences you havw written Coffin, but when it comes to religion I see kind of friction between my state of mind and your ideas.

Before Im going to examine on you argument, I want to say that I'm not a stupid nominal member of the churches, but what seperates me from the atheist is, that I do believe in god [god != church].

Now concerning your argument...
Its so fucking funny that everyone keeps stating, that a world without religion is a world without war, this argument is rather invalid. Because it is in the nature of mankind itself, that there will be always different interpretations of given situations. Conflicts are the human shadow...

Just to underline my argument, that a world without religion still has conflicts I want to connect my words to an episode of South Park, namely "Go God Go".
Part of this episode is, that mankind in the future has no religion at all, they are all atheist, BUT they all interpretated the spirit of atheism in a different way, so the result is, there is war between those different groups, war based on fucking ridiculous reasons.

I dont know if you get my point , just to summarize it, those "different groups" are the equivalent of our recent religions.

And in addition, if you havnt watched this episode , go ahead and consume it, it is worth watching it, one of the best episodes of all time !

Just my 2 cents...

Parent

I didnt say we would have no wars at all. :) But try to talk a secular humanist into going to war over sth and then try to talk a fundamentalist christian or muslim into going to war and see what is easier. The problem is that people are being told that faith is a virtue and religion is the basis of morals. Tat way, people can make anything up and make people hate each other for supersticious reasons.

Parent

A cartoon isnt some scientific research about how the world would look like without religion, it's in fact the personal interpretation of the makers of Southpark ...

I think you can't predict it because no one ever lived without religion.

Parent

People need to be able to have faith in somekind. Be it religion or anything else. If religion ( which is the faith and rock in the sea for many people out there ) would disappear, those many people would loose the standards by which they are living. Thus by removing the standards billions of people are living by ( may it be different standards ) are to be removed total chaos and anarchy would thrive.

Parent

I see no difference in happiness between religious people and atheists. I think Sartre once was said,that he never felt miserable for one day in his own life. Even if it was correct that religion makes people be happier and nicer to other people (which i cant see any proof for in every day life) it would still not make any of this true. =)

Parent

Ofcourse there basically is no difference between levels of happiness ( like you describe it ) between religious and atheists. And I'm not saying religion exists to be happier or nicer to people around you. I'm saying religion exists because some people needed and still need to be able to believe in something. This might not be the case for you but it is the case for many other people. Those people seek secureness and answers in their religion and think that by performing their religion ( in whatever matter that is ) will bring good upon their life.

Parent

Humans beings have been in war for thousands of years because of religion.... what are you trying to argue? That religion causes a peaceful society? Rofl ...

Parent

Religion has nothing to do with this. Its the people that try to endorse power through religion that are the problem.

Besides, often those wars are under the name of religion but are just basically about other things ( economical power, expansion of lands etc. )

Parent

jihad "the holy war"

Parent

This jihad that you speak of has been set into the wrong daylight over and over again. Leading to people now thinking the meaning of the word jihad is the agressive holy war by which the islam should be spread. However the real meaning of jihad is the following:

There are basically two forms of jihad. Internal and External Jihad
Internal jihad : The battle against seduction and one's own ego. ( With the best example being the Ramadan ).
External jihad : The defensive battle with those who form a threat to the islam or the unity of islamity. The explanation "holy war" can not be found in the vocabulairy of the classic sharia's and is thought of to have come from christianity.

Parent

so the islam is your religion?

Parent

No it is not

Parent

Anyway... religion is smth personal, everybody has there own way of thinking about it... I think there isn't any pure religion left that hasnt changed since their existance ... religions have become different mixtures of multicultural aspects.

According to Huntington there is a big chance there will be a 'Clash of civilizations', this is all religion based so I dont think your theoritical way of thinking about several aspects of religion isnt suitable.

Parent

i told you what jihad was, unlike what ppl think it is

Parent

Well not actually any religion but rather the misuse(/misunderstanding) of religions. Although I can't really talk about any other religion than christianity since I'm not familiar with any other for a simple reason I, however, seriously doubt that for example Muhammed encouraged muslims to kill people who represent any other religion than Islam. It's these fundamentalists who have been and are trying to use religion to support their own purposes.

As it comes to christianity, Jesus taught people to love even your enemies and pray for them and, if you're hit, to turn the other cheek instead of hitting back. And who could forget "thou shalt not kill"? (Well.. obviously loads of people, which is a shame ofc.) He's the one I believe in and whose words I want and try to follow in my life.

Parent

What is religion ?
Why Humans did create it ?
Why did they need that?
Most of people forgot the answers.

cause life sucked (yes more then now)

Parent

religion came forth from the fact that people had to explain certain events that they, at that time, could not comprehend or explain. So in order to give an explanation to, for example, lightning people creating gods or other religious things.

Parent

questions!

some ppl have difficulties to live their lifes ...

Parent

FTW

well silent...

imo Satan is a part of the Christianity, he is "the bad guy" in Christianity, but still he is a part of it.
So imo, it is also a kind of "religion" to believe in him.

I would say:
U don't need a god,satan,alah,buddah or whatever, just believe in yourself!

Parent

du bist so geil! :D

Parent

ich weiss :D

Parent

Believe in my self.. that wount help me when im dead and whan a paradise full of bisexual blonds with big tits, who goes around naken, have sex with all the other girls... and me, as only boy.. and when ive had enough, i play ET and eat hamburgers=)

Paradise:>> i can only get that true JEBUS!!

Parent

what a paradise :o

Parent

not funny :|

Parent

ich wollte gerade sagen "wenn das coffin liest.." aber du hast das journal ja gemacht :D

x]

Parent

LoL, ging mir grad ganz genauso

Parent

The people who believe in this(in the same, extreme, way) are living in the middle age again(Or Bronze age even). Thank god(=D) there are a lot of people who dare to test the limits. Without the renaissance, and people starting to doubt the church, we wouldn't have found America, we'd think that the world is flat, we'd think that the sun is summoned by the god of sun. Extreme religiousness is definitely like going back in time.
It's the same thing in christianity, the pope discouraging AFRICAN PEOPLE to use condoms, which stands for wishing them to die from AIDS for the love of god, or something as retarded as that.
I don't mind people believing, but it's that most of these people are just brainwashed =(

Amen ;)

Parent

Coffin hat zu viel med getrunken... muslimfeeder!

spasstkind!

met.

spasstkind!

Parent

most religious people are retarded , especially muslims

by saying that you are retarded.

But I think I can partially understand what you mean. You are trying to say that all religious fundamentalist are retarded. This because of the fact that they are fundamentalists ( which is in almost all cases a bad thing ).
Anyway, saying that all religious people are retarded doesn't even make any sense at all. Because we all have religion in us. Maybe not islam or christianity, but our own values and believes and rituals.

Amen

Parent

Our own values and morals do NOT come from religion, saying that we all have religion in us is just plain wrong. A certain spirituality in the EInsteinian sense perhaps yes, but religion? Not at all.

Parent

couldn't agree more!

Parent

i did not say our morals and values come from religion. I am saying that you own personal morals and values basically form you own sort of religion. So, those are intern factors. Besides internal factors there are ofcourse many external factors. Your friends, education, tv etc etc ( basically your environment ).

Maybe you misinterpretted my statement or my meaning of religion

Parent

Well, calling morals and ethics a religion is a really, really weird way of defining religion. A secular humanist or a naturalist/materialist doesnt have any superstitious beliefs which are the basis for the abrahmic relgions and still has a decent set of morals/ethics/values. I just wouldnt call that having a religion, since there is no superstition or faith involved.

Parent

Indeed the choice of the word religion might not be correct in this case. But it is just the way I feel about it. I couldn't resist responding to these comments being made since I felt they were not true/correct

Parent

if u saw the broadcast from this journal :

it's an ordinary mosque where the everyday muslim comes to pray , the fact that they have to go undercover te reveal this behaviour shows that the common muslim feels no intent to bring this to the world and talk about it , wich in my oppinion makes all muslims retarded.

Parent

That's like saying "the fact that you're a Belgian and a retard makes me think all Belgians are retards".

Parent

I am done talking to you

Parent

the fact the 3 of et's most idiotic people just commented me , makes me real happy :)

ur answers are not only retarded , they have nothing to do with it.

The fact that ur kind of people is angry about me making a fully justified statement is that u think i'm a racist. Well i ain't
i'm a semi-nationalist. As long as people work and speak the local language they are allowed to stay. if not get them on the first plane back home. Every week their are some immigrants complaining about the conditions they are living in here. well if u don't like it GO BACK HOME , they should be thanking every single belgian for paying his taxes .

The reason i got this way is because my girlfriend lives in Mechelen , if u walk in the streets there u'll feel like ur in Marocco.
U can't walk the street for 1km without being hassled by some foreigner.

Now here's my billion dollar question : When u get hassled on the street by some guy , or like my best friend get robbed by one , it'st 90% a fucking "brownie" .
What happend to the italian and chinese immigrants , why do they never make a fuss and adapt themselves to our habits and values.

to end this i'd like to say : I'm NOT a racist , i love Samuel L Jackson in every movie he makes , one of my best friends is chinese ( but talks better flemish then some belgians )

I wil not comment on any comments , since it's prolly all flame (wich i do like :) ) , please surprise me with some innovating words and some photoshopped pictures .

Parent

I pity you

edit : I have to laugh at you

"I think all muslims are retarded"

"I am not a racist, I like Samuel L. Jackson in every movie he makes"

Parent

1. do you have the guts to tell that to me in real life?
2. you are retard
3. now lets hope we both are coming to the CPC 2

edit: you people make me sick! what gives you the right to say all muslims are retarded? you don't even know 0.1 percent of all the muslims on this world... so I suggest you stfu

Parent

What does all the religion bring to you ?

It makes u fight each other, even here in the xfire-forum.

Fighting for something that is totally unimportant, fighting for something that had been invented by some people a tousand years ago to make people fight against others and to gain money from them etc...

Imo all this religious bullshit makes me sick! It doesn't matter if ur a moslem,christ or whatever.

Coffin already said it all:
"Our own values and morals do NOT come from religion"

Parent

QuoteWhat does all the religion bring to you ?

can't explain that to you... expecially not with my poor English

QuoteIt makes u fight each other, even here in the xfire-forum

do you actually believe that without any religion there would no fighting on this world? if you do you are bullshitting urself

QuoteFighting for something that is totally unimportant, fighting for something that had been invented by some people a tousand years ago to make people fight against others and to gain money from them etc...

if you don't care about religion and find it unimportant you don't even have the right to judge about it

QuoteImo all this religious bullshit makes me sick!

you make me sick

QuoteCoffin already said it all:
"Our own values and morals do NOT come from religion"

even if he is right... explain why millions and millions of people dedicated their life to a religion

Parent

2. Nope, there would 4 sure be fights and wars in this world, it sadly is the human nature to fight each other...
3. I do care about religion, am i not allowed to discuss about this only cause i am against it ? That's poor...
4. i just quoted u :-)
5. people are used the be religious, their parents had been, their grandparents had been and so on... if people would just spend some time and think about it, they would maybe "wake up"

btw, i don't "flame" you for believing in god or alah or something, it's your good right to believe in it and i totally accept this, no offence against that. I just wanted to share my oppinion.

Parent

so you are saying that I became a muslim because my mom and dad are?

1. I was never raised with the idea that I have to follow all the rules that are in the Koran
2. I went to Holland when I was 5 so I can't say that people in my neighboorhood talked me into being a muslim... I chose to be a muslim... not my dad, mom, sister or any of my family

Parent

well but lets say it was "easier" for u to become a muslim (cause ur mom and dad are), than a jew or buddhist right ?

Parent

maybe yes...

but it wasnt untill I was 8 I realised I was a muslim... then I didn't thought about it for 4/5 years... and slowly and have been taking it more seriously...

for example: since 2007 started I don't drink alcohol anymore and I don't smoke either...

sure you can say that I am giving things up... but its only because I want too! even my parents were suprised when I told them...

but they said and I quote my dad: 'I am fine with you being a muslim, but don't become a radical one... believe in thingss that you want to believe... don't let people manipulate you!

but then again its a big diffrence being a Bosnian muslim and being a Saoedi Arabian muslim

Parent

Millions of people chose their religion because their parents were of that religion, aka because they were influenced by these ideas.
It took me a pretty long time from being a believing kid to becoming the atheist i am today.

Parent

you are right...

only my point is: I wasnt influenced

Parent

i would say that u might not know that u had been influenced, that's the "idea" of an influence :-)

But i don't know u irl or anything, so no offence again here, maybe you are right and u really had no influences and chose to be a muslim on your own.

But i guess 99% of the people don't chose their religion without any influences

Parent

like I said... I realised that I was a muslim when I was 8 and for some reason I talked about it with my niece... and I can say this with 100 percent insureance that my parents did not influence me...

if you look at my sister and me you would never tell we were family...

she is 23... she is againt also against religion because she things that it only makes people fight each other... but she would never say that being a muslim or christian is bad... she hardly speaks any Bosnian anymore... she is slightly becoming a Dutch woman...

I am 16... love my country and I am a muslim

Parent

I would also never say it is "bad" to be a christ or a muslim btw...

I for myself just don't see a sense in believing strongly in any kind of religion.

Parent

I am not a strong believer either... but I am a muslim because I want too :]

this was fun :D now I'm gonna play some ET :D

Parent

hf :)

i still gotta work till 20cet T_T :(

Parent

Ofc millions of people dedicate their every day lives to religion. They have been told these things from childhood on. If i look closely at myself, its very obvious im still being greatly influenced by what my parents told me when i was a child. Thats why indoctrination at a young age is so wrong.

Parent

like I said to Noorgrin... read it :-]

I wasnt forced or told anything...

I myself chose to be a muslim... my parents or any family did not have anything to do with it

Parent

No its not religion that brings us to fight / discuss. It's fundamentalism, and in this case fundamentalism in religion. People that are radical and try to use the religion for their own purpose that's where the problem lies. Not in religion itself. By using the religion for something for their own good ( may it be slandering races and gender or trying to make a profit or achieve a power-status through religion ) ( or a specific group's good ) they blacken the name of religion which ultimately leads to people saying everything with religion is total crap. Which is ofcourse, the wrong way around. It's basically very simple. The "good" religious people have to suffer because of the "bad" religious people. Like current, muslims being the target..

Parent

edit :

saying religion is unimportant is just incomprehensible...

i would like to invite you into reading this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion. Clearly stating the definition/development of religion and it's importance

Parent

No page found under that URL.
But you can allways read some books by Dawkins or by Daniel Dennett if you wanna find out why religion still exists. Dawkins has a very intriguing theory of what he calles memes getting passed on over generations and relgion is one of those. (If i remember correctly).
This is also an interesting albeit short lecture by Dennett about religion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w036xAbSEs

Parent

i prefer Ludlum! way more attractive! :D

Parent

I understand people feel strongly about this topic but trying to argue it on xfire isn't worth it these arguments about the existence of God/religion have been going on 1000s of years it's naive to think that you can somehow come to an agreement or some point not already explained somewhere else in this journal. Have fun.

I think it is good for once that there is talk about some serious current issues in our environment instead of superficial talk about random computer stuff.

Parent

If you find debating fun sure =]

Parent

An intelligent debate about an important topic is one of the best ways to spend time there is. :P

Parent

right you are. Although it seems you come far better prepared to this debate then me. You seem to know a lot about it, which is good to see :)

Parent

I just read alot about this stuff. Nietzsche, Sartre, Bertrand Russel, Dawkins, Harris, Dennett, ofc. but also the satanic bible, some other books about occult nonsense and witchery bullshit. Give me a philosophical book, or sth about spirituality and will most likely read it.

Parent

im glad you read that stuff, because i don't! Some philosophical books or subjects are very interesting, but mostly they claim so many different things its hard to find a meaning in it.

Myself, i like ethics where i can express myself and able to judge on some level.

Parent

Oh and i also can encourage anyone to watch "The God that was not there", a very inspiring movie. Trailer can be downloaded here: http://www.thegodmovie.com/clip-Trailer.php

Parent

ausserdem is mir langweilig in der Arbeit ^^

Parent

The journey is the reward.

Parent

A very interesting debate about this topic and the role religion plays can be found here:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,536,God-Is-Not-a-Moderate,Sam-Harris-and-Andrew-Sullivan-Beliefnetcom

An email debate between Sam Harris (soon to be Dr. Harris in neurosciense iirc) and Andrew Sullivan. Its still in progress but already a very interesting read.

hmm, that is an interesting read.

I liked how he phrased this part:

QuoteAgreed. As the Pope said last year, I believe that God is truth and truth is, by definition, reasonable. Science cannot disprove true faith; because true faith rests on the truth; and science cannot be in ultimate conflict with the truth. So I am perfectly happy to believe in evolution, for example, as the most powerful theory yet devised explaining human history and pre-history. I have no fear of what science will tell us about the universe — since God is definitionally the Creator of such a universe; and the meaning of the universe cannot be in conflict with its Creator. I do not, in other words, see reason as somehow in conflict with faith — since both are reconciled by a Truth that may yet be beyond our understanding.

Parent

Well i liked Harris reply to that. =)

Quote"This is the ancient and unchanging faith of the Church"—of course it does change a little from time to time. Being bogus to a remarkable degree, it has to. The fact that the current pope freely uses terms like "reason" and "truth" does not at all guarantee that he is on good terms with the former, or would recognize the latter if it bit him. Starting with the (utterly unjustified) premise that one of your books is an infallible guide to reality is not a particularly promising approach to inquiry—be it physical, ethical, or spiritual.

Parent

christian extremists: www.ncforum.de.vu !!!!!!!!

Quote Hätten Sie sich einige Gesprächsfäden hier aufmerksam durchgelesen, hätten Sie gelernt, dass Geschlechtsverkehr zum Zwecke der Vermehrung natürlich keine Sünde, sondern gottgewollt ist. Wenn er jedoch zum sündigen Lustgewinn genutzt wird, stellt er eine Sünde dar, da hierbei der eigene Leib, der eine Gabe Gottes ist, zweckentfremdet wird, um teuflischen Versuchungen der Lust zu dienen..

Is this page a joke, or are these people for real. :( Thats just sad.

I mean there are honestly discussing if experiencing lust while having sex is a sin and some are proclaiming that you should totally refrain from having sex... Lunatics. :S

Parent

ich denke, die leute meinen das ernst. Habe mir mal ein paar threads durchgelesen, die sind wirklich so drauf

Parent

Ja hab mir auch ma n paar Sachen angesehn. Absolut unfassbar sowas. Man stelle sich mal vor solche Leute würden wieder mehr Macht/Anhänger bekommen. Wah

Parent

http://ncforum.argon163.server4free.de/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3971

lolol
also ich weiß nicht, aber ich kann irgendwie nicht glauben, dass die das wirklich ernst meinen.

Parent

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