About US Healthcare Bill
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22 Mar 2010, 10:25
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Journals
BobSaget posted a journal wondering why Americans don't want free healthcare. It got a lot of responses, and I typed up a miniature novel as a comment. Since I feel strongly that the average European opinion of America is misinformed, I felt that I should repost what I wrote to help you all understand that there are several good reasons why a rational, intelligent person would be against socialized health care in America. His journal was buried by the time I got to posting my comment, so here it is:
First off, I like that Europeans are quick to criticize US domestic policy, but when an American comments on their countries they consider it outrageous and tell them to stay out of it. Also the notion that 100% of Americans are dumb is completely false, there are dumb people everywhere, I know this from personal experience. We just get noticed more because we have more dumb people with bachelor's degrees that get paid to be idiots with loud voices. We also have the oldest continuous democratic government of any modern nation, but it has undergone virtually zero reform... citizens have zero direct control over the government. We don't even elect our president directly, whereas countries like Belgium have direct representation. America is also more ethnically, religiously, and culturally more diverse than any other country, which makes it difficult to please the majority.
Second, if you think any good or service can be free, you're most certainly the one who is ignorant. It might not cost money directly to individual citizens, but doctors can't work for free, medicine doesn't just appear out of thin air, and hospitals don't grow out of the ground. Those resources have to come from somewhere, and that is where most of the problem lies. $910 billion over the next 10 years is a huge risk during a global recession, especially when pharmaceuticals, health care, and biotechnology are huge sectors of our economy that generate a lot of economic activity. I think it's too much of a risk.
Third, there are parts of the bill that don't mesh with the values of a large percentage of Americans. Most prominently, the current version would fund abortions. Although I believe it is a couple's right to choose whether or not to have an abortion, I have a moral issue with abortions that are not for health reasons or rape victims. I refuse to have my tax dollars pay for abortions.
Fourth, Congress is thinking of using a bill that would forgo normal democratic process and pass the bill with a simple majority. That may not sound bad, but our Congress only has two parties (there are a couple of others but they only occupy about 2% of the seats, so their votes are negligible). Our current partisan society dictates that it's Democrats vs. Republicans; compromise is almost a foreign concept when it comes to politics. Both houses of Congress are majority Democrat, so this bill will pass without further modification if this is done, and we're stuck with it for a long time. This is something that needs careful review and compromises need to be made so that it doesn't enrage a large percentage of Americans. Forcing an unpopular bill is not what democracy is all about.
I am against the bill as it stands, I do not believe in socialized healthcare for America (it may work elsewhere), but I believe that it should be a strictly regulated private industry. In short, to me it's not an issue of whether or not something should be done to fix our current system, it's an issue of which way is the best, and I don't think we should be passing a bill that is this drastic without first considering other options
First off, I like that Europeans are quick to criticize US domestic policy, but when an American comments on their countries they consider it outrageous and tell them to stay out of it. Also the notion that 100% of Americans are dumb is completely false, there are dumb people everywhere, I know this from personal experience. We just get noticed more because we have more dumb people with bachelor's degrees that get paid to be idiots with loud voices. We also have the oldest continuous democratic government of any modern nation, but it has undergone virtually zero reform... citizens have zero direct control over the government. We don't even elect our president directly, whereas countries like Belgium have direct representation. America is also more ethnically, religiously, and culturally more diverse than any other country, which makes it difficult to please the majority.
Second, if you think any good or service can be free, you're most certainly the one who is ignorant. It might not cost money directly to individual citizens, but doctors can't work for free, medicine doesn't just appear out of thin air, and hospitals don't grow out of the ground. Those resources have to come from somewhere, and that is where most of the problem lies. $910 billion over the next 10 years is a huge risk during a global recession, especially when pharmaceuticals, health care, and biotechnology are huge sectors of our economy that generate a lot of economic activity. I think it's too much of a risk.
Third, there are parts of the bill that don't mesh with the values of a large percentage of Americans. Most prominently, the current version would fund abortions. Although I believe it is a couple's right to choose whether or not to have an abortion, I have a moral issue with abortions that are not for health reasons or rape victims. I refuse to have my tax dollars pay for abortions.
Fourth, Congress is thinking of using a bill that would forgo normal democratic process and pass the bill with a simple majority. That may not sound bad, but our Congress only has two parties (there are a couple of others but they only occupy about 2% of the seats, so their votes are negligible). Our current partisan society dictates that it's Democrats vs. Republicans; compromise is almost a foreign concept when it comes to politics. Both houses of Congress are majority Democrat, so this bill will pass without further modification if this is done, and we're stuck with it for a long time. This is something that needs careful review and compromises need to be made so that it doesn't enrage a large percentage of Americans. Forcing an unpopular bill is not what democracy is all about.
I am against the bill as it stands, I do not believe in socialized healthcare for America (it may work elsewhere), but I believe that it should be a strictly regulated private industry. In short, to me it's not an issue of whether or not something should be done to fix our current system, it's an issue of which way is the best, and I don't think we should be passing a bill that is this drastic without first considering other options
you say 'responsible' people will be able to pay for their own well being. surely you must admit being responsible in many cases wont have anything to do with it? people who have the lowest possible income will at first welcome the idea of lowering taxes as they have more money to spend on their basic needs. this doesnt mean they will have extra money to spend on health care, however responsible they might be.
I can understand your objections when it comes to abortion to some extend, although I dont see how then this new bill exactly works on this point... People will at all times be able to decide on abortion and have it funded by the state? And is there no way this bill will still be reshaped before it gets put through?
":D"
Anyway nice read, should make it into a column. And ofc you and I both now it's a never ending debate (especially with ppl from social healthcare oriented countries as most of the ppl on this website are). Fact is, there's pro's & con's to both sides of the story and the side you're leaning to mostly gets decided to what arguments you favor over others..... (certain moral values over economical arguments etc).
Personally i think a free healthcare system is great, but as you say i think the economical risk is major, and the timing is abysmall atm!
On a sidenote: I really don't agree with the 2 party system in the US. It comes across to me as you have to vote for the party that "least" disagrees with you....
First of all, I think the taxpayer is going to be interested to help out 38 million or so (large number) uninsured fellow americans who are afraid of getting a simple cold, no matter what the ethnicity, religion and culture is.
Second, Im sure the american government pays alot more than $91 billion a year for things that help the taxpayer alot less than this bill.
Third, regarding your view on values, I think that you need to step on a woman's shoes to feel how an unexpected kid can influence your life. Also you make it sound like its a thing women do repeatedly just for the fun of it. Trust me, abortions are not fun, and im not even a woman to fully understand that.
I totally agree with your fourth point though.
I also don't have insurance btw.
Also arent you afraid of one day (knock on wood) getting in an accident or so and needing medical help that you cant afford?
major companies that buy and sell unwanted newborns ...
yes you should, this is the point of insurances.
You said that health care should be a business branch on its own. So you are saying that peoples health care should be a place where major companies can make money.
You just go to the doctor and get your self checked and you dont have to pay for it. ( except some major surgeries etc, but you only have to cover a little amount of it)
i was once at hooters and one of the waitresses heard that i am from germany, so she came over and told me: I have a german relative too, he lives at the german border to russia.....
Capitalism is a good thing, but not if it concerns the health of the people. You're basically putting your safety in the hands of this huge striving-for-profit monster, which is completely wrong. You Americans have gotten so afraid of the thought of communism that you can't even think of the benefits that a small representation of that system inside your current one could have.
To get to your points:
1) What's wrong with us giving our opinions? Opening up debate with other cultures should be enlightening.
2) The only valid point in your column. In Belgium it doesn't get abused, but other free services such as unemployment alimony does get abused a lot. Now we're not closing it down, why not? Because it's a good thing to have, it's noble, it saves people's lives. I'm willing to give my money to other people who are less fortunate than me, even if there are some leaks in the system. I know that, when I get into problems, I will also be able to benefit from this same fund. The solution to the leaks and abuse isn't closing it all down, but to enforce the rules better. That's where the investments should go towards.
You say it's too much of a risk? How can a system that will protect you from diseases be a risk in times of recession? Of all times this should be the moment where you absolutely need this system. So many people are out of job, and can get sick without an insurance because they are so poor. This system will keep them alive. Your logic dictates it's too much of a risk for you to lose a part of your income, while others can just die. That's a risk? That's a motherfucking risk to you?
3 & 4) It's obvious Americans are anti anything related to communism. Obama was put in place to make change happen. Let him do his job, you can elect someone else next time. He was democratically elected, so he's got the power. Stop bitching now.
1) Nothing wrong with giving your opinions but it seems the majority of people that post here think that Americans are too dumb to govern themselves. How would you feel if that was the way I thought of Belgians?
2) I buy food for homeless people almost every week. I just don't like being forced to do it. Taxes and charity are two different things. I know a lot of able people who have never worked a day in their lives and get everything paid for, and I don't think that's fair to taxpayers.
My fear is that this might turn a recession into something that has monumental impact on future generations because we were irresponsible with our spending. Every action has consequences.
3/4) The President of the United States has no direct power to enact laws. He's just one man, it's not like he makes royal decrees that everybody must follow. I don't think our government, as is, works in the modern age where the whole country is represented by 535 people. We don't even directly elect the president, the election is just for statistical purposes so the electoral college can vote. Fact, not speculation or theory.
2) Being noble should be forced, as there's nothing wrong with it. Some people will never give to the poor, for being too selfish, well then the society should force them to.
3) Ye true, but he was voted to make change and now that he wants to make change, you're all being brainwashed by Fox news and crap like that...
You should never move to europe my friend.
Billions of people have died in the past 100 years alone because of people forcing their will upon others. Hitler forced his will upon all of Europe while Stalin & Hussein forced theirs upon their own people. Those who opposed paid the ultimate price. No, we do not force in this country.
Hypocrite.
I'm not arguing the system is right or wrong & I'm certainly not one to offer solutions however what bothers me is when you start suggesting the forcing of people to make certain choices.
Whats more is you're getting all huffy & puffy about this & you don't even live here. The American health care system has absolutely no effect on your life whatsoever & yet you're sitting there & dealing out insults because you have a predetermined stereotypical belief of what all Americans are like by which you use to determine that my values are different than yours. You don't know me & I don't pretend to know you.
End of the day we all probably want the same things it's just the methods in which we get there is where we differ. No need to be so up in arms about it.
Thats because 75%(??) of the Americans dont give a shit about people that are less fortunate than they are, so in most cases they need to be forced to do this.
Its about time the American people start giving a fuck about others.
Cut down on war expenses might help a lot, oh wait...Americans consider this "war on terrorism" something they must do for international "peacekeeping".
Fuck outta here pl0x.
Guess I should have specified...its not just America, its going on all over the world.
People just dont care about other people anymore, not as much as they used to...
Should go back to trading rocks n shit.
Well. Tell you what. All you ever hear about in this country it's our differences, things that point out our differences. That's all the media and the politicians are ever talking about! The things that separate us. Things that make us different from one another. That's the way the ruling class operates in any society. They try to divide the rest of the people. They keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other so that they, the rich, can run off with all the fucking money! Fairly simple thing, happens to work.That's why they're gonna talk about race, religion, ethnic and national background, jobs, income, education, social status, sexuality, global warming bologna, anything can do, to keep us fighting with each other, so that they can keep going to the bank.
You know how you could define the economic and social classes in this country? The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there... just to scare the shit out of the middle class.
Like FatGames? :P
also, I think it's rather short sighted to be putting yourself forward as rational and intelligent when you obviously choose to neglect the benefits that a healthcare bill would give to the people who dont have the same funds available for their primary needs as you have.
it's logical that people who would be able to pay for their well being when needed will dislike the idea of having to pay extra taxes for something they may not even need in the first place. logical, but selfish and ignorant in my opinion.
U will benefit from this fund ... for bout 2 years, until they kick ur sry ass :D
how do i know? :D izi, i know someone whos been there and done that :D
only some ppl can stay there for the rest of their lives and it aint us :D
:):):):00))
:D!
As for your question, what is fair? Also, when answering this, can you reconcile your definition of fair with other people's definition of fair?
And yes I do understand people have other ideas of what is fairness. I don't think my journal was to attack the people who oppose the idea of the new healthcare system, it was merely me asking why you would be opposed. I got my questions answered and am now enjoying the discussion as to why someone thinks like they do.
That being said, I think it should be the mother's choice. I know it's never an easy choice to make, but I don't think people should impose their morals on others.
What I don't appreciate is you insinuating that I don't have any sense of humanity and that I'm a cold-hearted bastard that won't lift a finger to help anybody.
I'm also glad that you can sleep at night thinking you've made an impact on the world by spreading lies in order to perpetuate hate against human beings, especially one that wants nothing more than people to be nice to each other.
You dont know the guy yet you think you know enough to give that statement.
I'm sorry but if you get into an argument where a lot of people have different and very strong opinions on a subject and you resort to these kind of statements then i think you need to have a good look at yourself and think about what you have just said.
He resorted to insulting me personally so I fired back.
I wasn't aware that racism was this acceptable.
Also point me where I was being a racist or sounded like a fascist.
Ok, fair enough. But then you go on and say that if the mother was raped, it's suddenly "okey" to murder that human being who certainly couldn't choose his parents?
LoL
@krosan - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8BRbM52gpc
good read, but i have problems relating to the american way of thinking/your arguments... comes across so narrowminded, so i wont bother going into all these arguments...
One solution seems to be the elephant in the room. It's two very simple words. If you disagree with it I'm interested to know why, since I'm not American and you may have a better understanding than me.
The two words are: Cut Defence.
We're victims of a fucked up political climate where money and politicians have corrupted every single aspect of government. Our officials care more about re-election than doing what is best for their constituents. The citizens are victims.
And as for abortions, I don't think I'll be far of when I assume your moral objections are rooting in Christianity?
Anyway, all joking aside, what are your moral objections towards abortion?
It's a personal choice man. I've answered this several times already, not that I expect you to read through all this text. I personally believe that at a certain point a fetus contains life, and that taking that life isn't justified if it can grow up healthy with loving adopted parents. Then again, that's just my personal belief about it, I support the right to choose what you feel is right.
Those that are pro-firearms will say "we have the right to protect ourselves and our families etc" but lets face it, in most cases where guns are used in the US, they aren't used for protection. The problem however is that it's already gone too far to be able to change it.
What I was trying to get at is that Europeans don't understand what life in America is like just as much as Americans don't understand what life in Europe is like, yet every time Americans pass some law that is different from laws in European countries, Crossfire blows up and calls all Americans idiots that shoot each other while driving giant trucks to get 500 cheeseburgers from McDonald's. I guess that much will never change, no matter how much the internet wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Americans.
The quintessence of your disquisition might be verity, although I'm not savvy nor sagacious enough to approximate the veracious purport of your pernicket culling of words.
The healthcare debate itself is as fascinating as American Politics is because the country is so polarised on so many issues. You raise abortion as one of the big issues and you're quite right, America houses the most extreme anti abortionist movement in the world where doctors are gunned down in the street for performing abortions. However a large volume of Americans dont have that same extreme view and want abortions for whatever reason. As a national healthcare system you need to offer it to anyone that wants it, the reality being that 'freedom of choice' something American Ideology pushes as a citizens right doesnt extend to abortion. So are you free as a nation or arent you?
The actual healthcare system itself I dont agree with your arguments as to why its harder for America to do it. Any European citizen can break their leg in any European country and with the correct form filled out prior to travelling receive free healthcare. In the upcoming years when Turkey joins the EU, The Christians of the north will receive free healthcare from as Islamic nation. That system is more diverse, more expensive and covers more people and economies than the American and it works flawlessly. The only reason I have travel insurance is for should i need healthcare in the states. The idea that its going to be hard to start it is true, but the idea that its harder than anyone elses is rubbish.
Lastly, and the most compelling argument for American Healthcare, An uninsured pregnant woman walks into a hospital in the states, She cannot be treated as she cannot apply for health insurance once she is pregnant due to it being a pre existing condition. Something has GOT to change with that being the case. Maybe this bill wasnt the perfect bill for that change, but as you highlight getting anything changed is almost impossible - JFK had to die for the civil rights bill to pass, so in my eyes, something is better than nothing.
Just because you don't have insurance does not mean you cannot or will not be treated. True you can be denied insurance but you cannot be denied proper care. Aside from that an uninsured pregnant woman goes to the top of list in terms of government aide.
Berners-Lee created HTTP not the internet. American defense did that.
but!
lol please! i dont even see their will to change their system for years! how should they combine accepting EU thoughts with (for example) freedom of the individual, as long as their highest priority are religious beliefs, in which there is no emanzipation and equalation of women?
At the moment they have not much in common with EU idials. maybe they are ready to join in 1-2 centuries.
Thanks.
The time has come. Thomas Jefferson said that we need to have a revolution every 20 years to keep the government in line. Well, we’ve neglected our duty and now it’s time.
George Carlin and Bill Hicks are on my hero list.
Best history lesson ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVYxGG8albs
There isnt a single country that has a government that completely represents "the people" because people will always think differently.
You cant have 1 person make decisions for millions, thats why they introduced a system where he can at least make decisions for the majority of "the people".
What do you propose? Total anarchy? That'll work out for you.
I don't have time to read and feed trolls, get some proper education, get your own opinion, come back and we talk. I can't blame ya,
You say any good service cannot be free and you're completely right about this, but it can be paid by taxes. Don't you agree that people with a higher income can pay more and thus helping the ones that have low (or no) income? Wouldn't you call this fair? I mean in some years I will hopefully be done studying and will have an income higher than average Joe. It would only make sense I would have to pay more than average Joe to the state so that everyone has the same privileges as I have. You say that it's someone own fault if he can't pay for his healthcare insurance. Don't you think there are circumstances someone has done nothing wrong but still isn't able to pay for his insurance? Even if someone did something wrong, like say he's an alcoholic. Don't you think he should still be offered healthcare? Even alcoholics get sick, heck they even get sicker more often than the average person. Americans are all about Christianity and what not, doesn't it say in the bible you should help your fellow humans? That one of the best things to do is to forgive someone for their flaws and help them nontheless?
I could type a lot more but I think I will just leave it with this. I would like to close with one last phrase and that is that socialism and communism isn't the same thing. I think Americans forgot this a while ago.
...hellow this is capitalist country numbero uno we are talking about!! exploiting stupid and
vulnerable people is what they do for a living.
PS: take care and good luck at the funeral (gecondoleerd)
I am one of those people who can't pay for health insurance. It isn't my fault that it's expensive, but there are things that can be done to bring it to a point where I can afford it, including increasing the minimum wage and eliminating waste and corruption from our current system.
Would it be better if I told you I go into McDonald's every day in my gigantic truck, toss a bag of money up on the counter, and then masturbate while I shoot guns and eat cheeseburgers, and that I keep a photo of starving AIDS patients next to my bed so I can be reminded of how much better my life is than everybody else?
And then there is the side of people that are skeptic about it because of the use of money. Its not that they don't want health care for other people but only as long as they don't have to pay for it. Plus it must still be possible to make profit out of it.
And so the counter arguments are always about money and fear of failure with whatever is proposed by the other side. Politics suck, also because they don't come with a better proposal and why should they.
I think that bitching wont get you anywhere and will just set you off course and loose sight of the problem and i must say that Americans are experts in doing this ill give you that.
Your just going to have to try it and see how it goes because its not impossible to perfect it and make it fully functional and affordable.
I don't make much money, and I still give what I can to people who are less fortunate. I like that you're insinuating that I'm a bad, greedy person who won't lift a finger to help anybody else when you don't know me at all.
My counter argument is that there is a better way: make health care affordable so that people can get it when they need it by cutting waste and corruption. There are better ways of distributing wealth than literally taking it from people and giving it out to other people.
People need food too but nobody has a program that provides socialized food to everybody.
Actually we have foodbanks that distribute food to everyone in need.
My argument is not personally aimed at you please keep that in mind.
this might sound strange to you but and i dont mean to offend you but ive never been a big fan of giving 'poor people' of the streets money so they can go out and buy cigarettes, drugs or alcohol xD cause that's what usually happens here in Holland :D
Then would you take on the corporations that are currently running most of the heath care/insurance. I think that's a good idea but isn't this bill ment to do that up to a certain level?
Mostly true, but that's their choice, we give them the chance to make another choice, and that's what matters!
Anyway im no expert on this subject but i hope the US figures it out and does smth about it instead of only talking about how it should not be. My source of intel is jon stewart :P
+giving food is smart :DDD lets just hope they don't trade it for drugs alcohol or cigarettes heheh or do you make sure they eat it aswell :P Just kidding ofc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_earl
Fast food is a major health issue which we now are also seeing in Europe.
As for the debate, I agree with the point about it being too 'early..?' to introduce this sort of bill with the current state of things, I live in the UK and almost everyday there are headlines (depending on what paper you read ofc :P) about how terrible the NHS is, how slow, dirty, overworked, undermotivated and most importantly is creating a giant blackhole of debt into our government MONAYZ.
On the other side of things in the UK we have 'some' private healthcare, a company called Bupa (the only one that comes to mind) although i've never been treated by Bupa I have friends who have been, and they said the difference between the two different types of hospitals was incredible.
Not really sure where I was going with this, just showing things from the UK (and my) perspective.