let's talk et maps!
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3 Apr 2010, 13:00
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Journals
hey guys.
just curious, what's your favorite map and why?
don't just gimme a tacky answer, go full :D i want an awesome discussion!
also what do you think makes a map good vs bad?
a lot of people were whining about special delivery and braundorf, etc. why are these maps bad?
edit: this discussion is more geared towards 5o5 competition
just curious, what's your favorite map and why?
don't just gimme a tacky answer, go full :D i want an awesome discussion!
also what do you think makes a map good vs bad?
a lot of people were whining about special delivery and braundorf, etc. why are these maps bad?
edit: this discussion is more geared towards 5o5 competition
old oasis def rg 6on6
battery 6on6 pf
fueldump fops GMC toedzone 64/64
BUT tbh sd wins with ICE only because of rifle...
it's like sos secret weapon. that map the defense was over powered for this same reason.
look @ et_frostbite... we got cp now, and with shorter spawn allies are in better position... thats lead to fast times... in rtcw you clould recap the flag, killing allies attack in an instant... even if the doc were taken, without a lag the carrier didnt have reinforcments to safely escort the doct to the transmiter
Whenever I play ice in 3v3, opponents have no clue how to defend the map, people don't even try to understand how to play the map.
And all my favourite maps are mostly from ET so don't worry, I just said that ice a good map but players have no idea how to play it.
btw, there is a shit load of difference between ET and rtcw, I prefer ET tho! You didn't read me good I guess.
Was a random answer :DDD
edit: heyo are you that guy with funny hairs?
edit: heyo yes.
the best maps are those with many stages and open range, you need at least a bit of teamplay to win them
thats why the best map is radar!
delivery is the same way, there's 3 objective (build, 2 carry objective)
also if allies will plant the dyno @ the gate and axis wont be able to defuse it after their spawn then allies can quickly rush to the controls and plant them (same goes with covert trick)
2 fulls @ controls defence stage is a total disaster tho
on delivery its even more common to set the times @ around 2-3mins, if axis dont set their defence on time then allies will quickly build the crane and keep them in control through the rest of the map, also its easy to camp axis spawn
if you could finalize it what would you do?
and how would you fix sp_deliv?
but delivery is a total crap for me
hmm how to improve it? dunno, its really fucked up map :D maybe make something to slow down the tempo after losing the flag by axis; put the gate (you need to plant the dyno there) in the tunnel and make a door (you need satchel to destroy it) downstairs (to that office with map, chair and desk, ofcourse the window wouldnt be destroyable then); oh and no second gate next to that door; really no idea
for me its like:
radar>gold+supply>...>karsiah,(dubrovnik?)>..........>frost,b4,bremen>..........>adler>delivery
:D
you like karsiah?
talk about that map!
it has a few stages (flag, dyno, south, north)
there's a lot of spam (nades, rnades, artys, supports, pfs, landmines!)
both attack and defence has to be well-organized
no camping bitches around the corner
at least it's not TOO lotto i suppose...
to the question:
i think spam is quite a big part of the game, BUT there should be only one way you can cover using it (like the north way on ice). so that spam is not entirely erased and still plays a role but is not too overvalued or even like in the case of delivery forming a complete defence
the covert class in more geared towards long range fighting when looked at on paper. fg42 is the only real pushing weapon but that has such a small clip and is so inaccurate that it kinda sucks. strange objective for a long range class.
also i think that it's too difficult to repair tanks after they're blown.
and adler, needs brain
the worst map in ET history award goes to delivery, jesus i just cant imagine how bad this map is, simply because u have 1 tax : rifle shooting to the tunnel etc and smgs hiding behind corners, just waiting till u will be near them. and, if this wasnt enough, even if u manage to get to the controls, 1 guy can backrape u with docks and u're starting again.
personally i cant even find 1 good clan (except bF) which likes this map
nah rly, this map is just too easy man, tax is : aggresive rifle and fop + reviving medic in front, this combo is just unstoppable, and 2 medics at spawn or near elevator.
i think most of the weaker clans rly like this map because of how easy it is to defend (oh, i forgot to add that u have to put ur crosshair in one position to own). when we (swat) were starting our "career" with better clans, we owned everyone at delivery :P
http://img88.imageshack.us/i/spdelivmayb.jpg/
(wont let me post pic for some reason!)
grey = bridge area
maybe put boxes that are too low to get complete cover when crouched and too high to shoot over when crouching in the hall?
maybe something to braundorf to make it better? that map was never made final ;p
delivery = fail, rly :P
ideas don't come from thin air. if you properly assess the flaws of one map, it might help mapmakers to make new maps, without those flaws.
and hey, maybe i'll give mapmaking a shot ;p
the best idea so far
for delivery: imo axis' ways to rush for the chokepoints are just too short, and there are simply too many of those
about what makes a good map?
-well, imo a good map has two semi-independant ways for allies to attack, with one maybe even having a second route.(rather all of them taking more or less the same amount of time plus allowing for crossfire for attackers(different directions))
-two to three real stages, and probably one to give axis the possibility to buy some time (obviously depending on how well they do at that one-.-)
-advanced spawnpoints
-at least two spawnexits, one probably even splitting up later on
-not too long ways for attackers to reach the 'battlefield'
-not too many easily guardable chokepoints
-not too many obstacles(allowing for backraping - which attackers would have to check for thus slowing down gameplay)
-imo a small constructable for attackers(neutral cp)
-in case of obj run - the possibility for defenders to at least once try to get the obj back
what do you think of indoor vs outdoor maps? all (excluding battery) of the premade maps for ET take place outdoors. i think this maximizes uncontrolled spam (landmines, artillery, nade spam) and minimizes controlled spam (rnades, airstrikes since there's tons of area to go).
the biggest problem with maps like special delivery and braun is that theres the indoors grants power to the controlled spam which, more or less, makes rifle overpowered.
what's your opinion? better when maps are mainly outdoors or indoors?
(speaking for radar mostly, but even applies a little bit for gr if you use your options at hand to the maximum)
but imagine gr being indoors, would you think that the last stage would be as much fun?
k no fop placing annoying atillery at the bridge, but also you can not attack/spawnkill with airstrikes
well, ok, now that i typed it it would be possible imo, but result in totally different gameplay than we have now.
imo it would not definitely get worse or better, but different, pleasing another clientele
favoring crossfire more for the cost of spam
u think spawn kills are an important part of a good map? on grush and supply you have the whole panzer + rnade based spawnkilling, with strikes on grush. allies really need to spawn kill to make something happen i think.
on radar there's less spawn kill i think. west hut is defended by your crossfire at west radar and nobody really spawns at the warehouse + there's so many ways to get away from nades @ warehouse.
thoughts on this?
it actually imo IS possible to get everyone out.
yes, spawnkills are essential on gr, agree on that, but strikes are imo not.
there ARE other ways, but it would definitely be harder to spawnkill without the strikes, but on the other side... you get a weaker defense at the bride, which would on the other hand make things much easier for you, at least at first(maybe not if a team would get used to not having the fop there)
yep, rarely see really efficient spawnkills on forward hut:P
and if, there is only one person spawning lower spawn, which i wouldn't call a valuable target to prey on:P
those 2 are just the perfect examples of how spawnkill can either be a really asset or quite the opposite.
You need atleast some degree of teamwork in Radar for example, in attack there is loads of crossfire everywhere so you need good revives and also you must crossfire them back.
In defense obviously there are loads of different ways the attacker may go so you need to carefully defend all of them and still be able to quickly concentrate your forces onto the one single point the majority of the attackers go to. The CP-main defense for example, have one too few players at either of them and they could easily take one or both parts before you even realize.
Of course 5o5 very effectively makes this map dull.
do you think maps that rely on uncontrolled spam (radar etc; landmines, arty, nade spam) are better than maps that rely on controlled spam (special deliv, adler, braun; airstrikes or rnade)?
imo controlled spam takes more skill than uncontrolled, and yes i think maps with less uncontrolled spam are better than those which entirely rely on it
for instance: sp deliv, frostbite, adler, braundorf. all those maps are indoors and rifle has so much more power in them than in open maps.
radar is an outdoor map and many teams use landmines and artillery liberally. rifle is underpowered there, excluding the one choke point, side, which is indoors.
grush stage 1 has a nice balance imo. landmine = uncontrolled @ main with rifle controlled side and back.
thoughts?
it offers a variaty of ways to attack and leaves not ultimately many places to camp.
BUT by removing the uncontrolled spam (well i actually wouldn't count all landmines into it->radar side) it would be with the default tactics most teams use too hard to defend the main gate. but by shifting to a more advanced defence it would still be possible (the usual 3v3 defence)
delivery is entirely SPAM controlled, no matter what kind of it, it's actually both imo(random nades).
radar is apart from bunker spawnkill imo not a map where you'd spam at all (if attackers do not always take the direct way at the wall at the back^^)
For me the worst maps are delivery and supply. Supply was good at the begining, not anymore.
why do supply and deliv suck? why was supply better before? "before" meaning before people fell into typical defenses where most teams defended last stage from top or what?
Supply is now too much used because it's too easy to defend the map.
imo oasis is too easy to defend. it's blatantly obvious when people are(nt) going pumps.
also why do you think you're the only person who's really mentioned a map like etbeach here?
Maybe because I'm the only one to have an open mind on maps :D?
Get aim and attack skills dude.
Anyhow, I still think the old oasis could be playable in 5on5. Yes it's a big map, but with only 5 it's harder to have such an agressive defense like idle set as a standard, and it could actually open more possibilities. (new oasis sucks)
And if there was a fullhold on Oasis it was clearly because Allies didn't have a good tactic since it's way harder to defend oasis than supply.
edit: Oasis got removed because people didn't like the new version. So yes, new Oasis sucks hard.
And get a decent knowledge before stating wrong facts.
Your knowledge seems to be really good, tell me more.
I guess this ends the discussion then.
why!?
although there are like million ways to get to the radar, axis can also put really good crossfire which could successfuly defend all but the front (if the enemy cannot see the proning guy then front too)
it can have a lot of different tactics, some axis can rush to 2nd, some even more forward, others can coordinate with them, i think rifle is fun in there too
the map has awesome potential to show off the teamplay and timing of the teams on both sides
thoughts?
one spawnpoint is np as long as the axis go out of it not stepping straight into nades + the fact that its only a bit away from the radar enables other m8s to help out
another spawn should be somewhere close to the 1st imo coz its perfect where it is
now just get us the mapper :D!
also it's an old rtcw map. old schoolers would be sad if it got changed :(
why is there teamplay needed! dig deep!
f.e
first stage allies: engi needs to be escorted at all costs
bankstage axis: build up crossfire, avoid crucial spawnkills which happens mostly if every one is taken down, fops/medics @ 3rd arch should therefore try to not selfkill therefore and cover reinforcements.
can vary ofc according to team and tax..
e: nvm got it :>
supply: good map but every noob can play it lately (first stage sux tho)
goldrush: also good, but can be lucky once you defend fullhold then next day you defend 7 minutes against the same opponent
is this because it's overplayed or because there are generic positions that everybody plays?
if the latter, is it a good thing that there are specific places that people *should* play or would you rather a map where each team might have an entirely different defense?
some good teams just dunno how to play this map that's the reason noobs r rollin 'em!
you cant really 'overthink' or make good tactics against better teams, you have to kill the enemy on full thats it. supply is too aim/spam only
in 6o6 outside defens was much easier than in 5o5, teams going up again because its harder to check 3 ways with 5 players
you never answered my first reply so lets hear a lil. what makes supply bad and radar good?
one guy at west tower can be usufull but i dont want to go deeper to analyse why risky to defend outside :-)
why does supply stage1 suck though?
dunno though, if one would still be able to defend upside in that case
http://www.gamestv.org/event/4223-fear-factory-x-fi-vs-savak/ and watch savaks on supply - ALMOST everything you need to know ('how to play stuff') about this map is there
random song
goldrush cause its hard to play
radar cause its XCITING till the end
about radar: check nonix's comment
I won't start a discussion about teamplay on maps though, as opinions differ too much :p. Just take it as granted that maps like radar require teamplay and coordination.
in 5on5 : supply
braundorf = best aiming map
supply = nice map for having good teamplay and somehow i like the layout, goldrush is so dark :(
so if aiming at braundorf is so much easier, why do so meany people suck on it? :x
aiming at goldrush is pretty exhausting though due to all the up and down's ... but that's it imo :p
for 5v5 standards, why is supply a better map than say.. radar?
yea, it would be better then :p
and supply definitely isn't the most teambased map, by far not-.-
http://img88.imageshack.us/i/spdelivmayb.jpg/
if sp deliv was more like that with boxes etc in that hallway, would it be better?
and dunno
its a classic map and The obj like how i said, The allies tryin to steal The Radar to fucked up The axis is so epic bro,
The arty in Gate is like a Real war the ppl dying The guys callin for medic All the stuff is just awesome, Just like Battery a Real and Hard Mission for Allies Team
also does map appearance play a role in how good it is?
The real sense of the war.
cuz the old maps, Are like Epic battles, Oasis Radar Railgun Battery Etc.
just in my opinion bro,
maps like brandorf/delivery are bad because theyre heavily rnade based, a rnade in a small corridor could take out 3 people which is more than half the team even taking out 2 full is a huge disadvantage, so its not down to your teamplay/tactics its down to a dominant rnade.
controlled spam = timed nades, rnades, airstrikes
uncontrolled = arty, landmines, untimed nade spam
most of the time, if the map doesnt rely on controlled, than it does uncontrolled. (ie radar, grush last stage, bremen stage 1)
you believe that maps are better and more reliant on teamwork if they rely on uncontrolled spam?
i like it, too. im just looking for some community opinions.
dunno meaning u have flag, cp, depot gate, crain controls, truck
U can fullhold 15 min easily, but u also can get raged in 6 minutes if everything goes wrong.
I think we need a map with the ~ same story as supply, but a slight different landscape
but answer the question. there's an "or" in the mix up there ;D
for instance, reactor can technically be won without an engineer, it would just be difficult.
a lot of people hate going engineer, some others really would miss it :)
so its +-
its super tatical and its not just about aim.
lots of stages tho..
But like bremen for the same reason :P.
im just trying to gather opinions about maps and what makes them tick.
so why do you think grush supply and radar are "brain" and "teamplay" maps?
I always liked goldrush because of the teamplay that is that important on that map but you can also sneak on your own through spawn or smth. But when I had my old computer I didnt like grush the most because of the low fps. In that time i liked supply the most.
Top 3 (not in order of most liked)
1. Goldrush
2. Supply
3. SP_del
why is sp_del ur 3rd favorite? what about radar? it's rather strange to see it there. im actually quite interested on this one ;p
radar is nice aswell.. but my aim at long range is really sucky :P Maybe 3. would be del/radar
no need to post those stupid questions to every reply, discuss if u want but its not done like that
who cares if I say I think fuel is the best map because it requires good spam, good long range aim, sniping, teamplay, medicplay, dynacovering, spawnkill?
gold
tc_base
what do you like about it? why dont you think many people have listed this on their favorites?
supply its the most played simply because map is an open area and u still have nice fps, it even has an stage with corridors.