After sending two rather lengthy e-mails to the cup chiefs at ClanBase, followed by an even lengthier IRC discussion with Ginga_Ninja, who is in fact a cup chief at ClanBase. I discovered some 'rules', for want of a better term, which aren't very evident on their cheating policy page. Some of the interesting things which I discovered follow.
Unless a cheater was shown to have cheated in a ClanBase game, the official ClanBase games in which he played will not be forfeited. That means that our game against Pro5 will not result in a forfeit in our favour, because keran 'only' cheated on a public. How they obtained that piece of information is beyond me, but apparently they know better. Or rather, apparently they can infer that he never cheated in a ClanBase game because it hasn't been proven that he did. It seems like ClanBase are distinguishing between 'types' of cheaters. I'd interpret, going by ClanBase policy, that it's more 'okay' to cheat on a public server. Is it so hard to enforce a zero-tolerance policy? Apparently being shown to be a liar and a cheater doesn't do much to diminish one's credibility, according to ClanBase.
Using the keran case, since it's a fresh example, he said something about using the cheat once on a public non-PB server. Why was it that he was caught on a PB server? Maybe his Multihack CFG skills are on par with his ASE server filter skills. Firstly, that would indicate that he lied about where he used it, and also that he used it more than once, as someone revealed that he used it in a 1on1 with a consenting player. That coupled with the fact that it has been proven that he did cheat should surely mean we ought to be rather wary about him. Why does he still get the benefit of the doubt, claiming that he didn't use it in an official? This isn't a case of guilty until proven innocent, it's a case of him not deserving to be believed, he's inclined to try out a cheat on more than one occasion, that's enough of an indication as to what type of guy he is. Why should we believe him?
So take note my fellow ET gamers, start practicing your defence, common excuses include "it was my brother" or "I was at a LAN", but apparently "I was testing hitboxes" works a treat too. Get working on your excuses, you never know when they'll come in handy. You can basically cheat all you want in pracs/publics/other leagues and you won't get more than a personal ban from ClanBase. Your clan suffer any negative consequences whatsoever, even if they knew you were going to be banned.
Carrying on from my initial discovery, we can conclude that in any non-ClanBase play, a cheating offence is treated with only a personal ban, meaning that the punishment is a 6 month ban for the player, nothing more. Does anyone happen to remember the razz incident? That wasn't a ClanBase game. When asked about that, Ginga_Ninja admitted that the Team-Helix games which were forfeited as a result of razz's rivatuner tweaks were actually a mistake, an incorrect decision if you will. He claimed that the correct decision should have been only a personal ban for razz, and that Team-Helix's games should not have been forfeited. Looks like Team-Helix could have played that EuroCup afterall, too bad guys!
Another example is the Team-viSual case, a clan participating in this season's ET OpenCup. One of their players, Phunk, was caught hacking on a public server, his clan was red carded, and their games were forfeited: 1, 2 & 3. I also asked Ginga_Ninja about this one, turns out that this one was a mistake too, oopsie.
Yet another example is the mize incident, whereby he was told to get off a server and that he wasn't allowed to play, because he had been caught cheating prior to that. Note that he wasn't actually banned - his ban was still pending I believe. I also asked Ginga_Ninja about this one, guess what? It was a mistake too, turns out that mize should have actually been allowed to play in that game.
At this point, he seemed to have an answer for everything, I clearly wasn't getting anywhere, he constantly kept repeating that this keran decision was a correct one, and that all the others were incorrect. I tried a different approach, I raised the point that, strictly speaking, Pro5 did in fact use a banned player during the game, as the ban was applied about 15 minutes before the game ended. Ginga_Ninja first used the excuse that the game had already started, I then asked him where I could find that particular line in the rules, he claimed that forfeiting the game on account of that be 'ridiculous' and that it would cause a 'dangerous precedent'. I agree that at this point I was probably being quite petty, arguing over the semantics of a rule, but in my eyes it was no more pathetic than Pro5 willingly playing with someone that they knew would be banned. Ginga_Ninja seemed to acknowledge that, while I may be correct, it'd be far too controversial and cause too much whine. Wouldn't it be a fair punishment though? Wouldn't it send out a message, once and for all, for people to stop fucking playing with busted cheaters? Pro5 risked it and took their chances, knowing fully that his ban was imminent, they should be punished for thinking they could get away with it.
In spite of ClanBase regretfully acknowledging their slow and archaic system for banning people, they still won't account for it. Therefore, you're basically screwed if you come up against a player who has cheated, unless it was in an official ClanBase game. Clown told me that he recently lost a 3on3 OpenCup game with his 3on3 clan 'neegers', against overload, who had JkzZ playing for them. JkzZ has since been banned for cheating. Unfortunately, the game won't result in a forfeit win in favour of neegers, because JkzZ 'only' cheated on a public server. JkzZ is probably more widely regarded as being a cheater than keran is, but the fact of the matter is that there is no way of being certain how much he cheated, or where he did it (whether it was a prac or an official game), the same way we don't know how much or where keran cheated. ClanBase shouldn't be required to make a judgement call in these situations. It should be black and white, if you cheat, under any circumstance, you should be punished like any other cheater - the only difference should be the length of the ban, the only thing that matter is that we have established that both are cheaters. That would be fair justice, instead of cheating a legitimate team like neegers out of a victory.
Despite this comedy of errors on behalf of ClanBase, I've been assured that they will fix these things, such as working on the problem of there being a different outcome to almost every decision, despite them being almost identical. I've been assured that these inconsistencies will be a thing of the past. I suppose that's too little too late for clans like Team-Helix and neegers though. I've also been assured that the policy page will be updated to be 'more clear', I assume this relates to the part about playing with a banned player. So it's okay everyone, we can all go back to accepting ClanBase's ways and means, they'll be fixed soon anyway! Eventually I gave up, having realised that Ginga_Ninja was only one step short of actually making excuses for keran, I quickly whoised him to check if it was keran, having discovered that it wasn't, and that I wasn't the victim of a cruel practical joke, my mind was at ease. For about one second. Are ClanBase really that stupid? Is this leniency really doing anything good for our game, or for gaming as a whole? I was quite shocked by what I was reading.
Some food for thought: why do we actually still play in ClanBase? Most people I speak to are unhappy with the mappool, the config and the ban system. Why do we still play there? What does it have that ESL doesn't have, or even Warleagues for that matter? ClanBase is but a name, and it's a shadow of its former self, it used to be something I looked up to, now it's something I vow to never play in again, if I can avoid it.
Unless a cheater was shown to have cheated in a ClanBase game, the official ClanBase games in which he played will not be forfeited. That means that our game against Pro5 will not result in a forfeit in our favour, because keran 'only' cheated on a public. How they obtained that piece of information is beyond me, but apparently they know better. Or rather, apparently they can infer that he never cheated in a ClanBase game because it hasn't been proven that he did. It seems like ClanBase are distinguishing between 'types' of cheaters. I'd interpret, going by ClanBase policy, that it's more 'okay' to cheat on a public server. Is it so hard to enforce a zero-tolerance policy? Apparently being shown to be a liar and a cheater doesn't do much to diminish one's credibility, according to ClanBase.
Using the keran case, since it's a fresh example, he said something about using the cheat once on a public non-PB server. Why was it that he was caught on a PB server? Maybe his Multihack CFG skills are on par with his ASE server filter skills. Firstly, that would indicate that he lied about where he used it, and also that he used it more than once, as someone revealed that he used it in a 1on1 with a consenting player. That coupled with the fact that it has been proven that he did cheat should surely mean we ought to be rather wary about him. Why does he still get the benefit of the doubt, claiming that he didn't use it in an official? This isn't a case of guilty until proven innocent, it's a case of him not deserving to be believed, he's inclined to try out a cheat on more than one occasion, that's enough of an indication as to what type of guy he is. Why should we believe him?
So take note my fellow ET gamers, start practicing your defence, common excuses include "it was my brother" or "I was at a LAN", but apparently "I was testing hitboxes" works a treat too. Get working on your excuses, you never know when they'll come in handy. You can basically cheat all you want in pracs/publics/other leagues and you won't get more than a personal ban from ClanBase. Your clan suffer any negative consequences whatsoever, even if they knew you were going to be banned.
Carrying on from my initial discovery, we can conclude that in any non-ClanBase play, a cheating offence is treated with only a personal ban, meaning that the punishment is a 6 month ban for the player, nothing more. Does anyone happen to remember the razz incident? That wasn't a ClanBase game. When asked about that, Ginga_Ninja admitted that the Team-Helix games which were forfeited as a result of razz's rivatuner tweaks were actually a mistake, an incorrect decision if you will. He claimed that the correct decision should have been only a personal ban for razz, and that Team-Helix's games should not have been forfeited. Looks like Team-Helix could have played that EuroCup afterall, too bad guys!
Another example is the Team-viSual case, a clan participating in this season's ET OpenCup. One of their players, Phunk, was caught hacking on a public server, his clan was red carded, and their games were forfeited: 1, 2 & 3. I also asked Ginga_Ninja about this one, turns out that this one was a mistake too, oopsie.
Yet another example is the mize incident, whereby he was told to get off a server and that he wasn't allowed to play, because he had been caught cheating prior to that. Note that he wasn't actually banned - his ban was still pending I believe. I also asked Ginga_Ninja about this one, guess what? It was a mistake too, turns out that mize should have actually been allowed to play in that game.
At this point, he seemed to have an answer for everything, I clearly wasn't getting anywhere, he constantly kept repeating that this keran decision was a correct one, and that all the others were incorrect. I tried a different approach, I raised the point that, strictly speaking, Pro5 did in fact use a banned player during the game, as the ban was applied about 15 minutes before the game ended. Ginga_Ninja first used the excuse that the game had already started, I then asked him where I could find that particular line in the rules, he claimed that forfeiting the game on account of that be 'ridiculous' and that it would cause a 'dangerous precedent'. I agree that at this point I was probably being quite petty, arguing over the semantics of a rule, but in my eyes it was no more pathetic than Pro5 willingly playing with someone that they knew would be banned. Ginga_Ninja seemed to acknowledge that, while I may be correct, it'd be far too controversial and cause too much whine. Wouldn't it be a fair punishment though? Wouldn't it send out a message, once and for all, for people to stop fucking playing with busted cheaters? Pro5 risked it and took their chances, knowing fully that his ban was imminent, they should be punished for thinking they could get away with it.
In spite of ClanBase regretfully acknowledging their slow and archaic system for banning people, they still won't account for it. Therefore, you're basically screwed if you come up against a player who has cheated, unless it was in an official ClanBase game. Clown told me that he recently lost a 3on3 OpenCup game with his 3on3 clan 'neegers', against overload, who had JkzZ playing for them. JkzZ has since been banned for cheating. Unfortunately, the game won't result in a forfeit win in favour of neegers, because JkzZ 'only' cheated on a public server. JkzZ is probably more widely regarded as being a cheater than keran is, but the fact of the matter is that there is no way of being certain how much he cheated, or where he did it (whether it was a prac or an official game), the same way we don't know how much or where keran cheated. ClanBase shouldn't be required to make a judgement call in these situations. It should be black and white, if you cheat, under any circumstance, you should be punished like any other cheater - the only difference should be the length of the ban, the only thing that matter is that we have established that both are cheaters. That would be fair justice, instead of cheating a legitimate team like neegers out of a victory.
Despite this comedy of errors on behalf of ClanBase, I've been assured that they will fix these things, such as working on the problem of there being a different outcome to almost every decision, despite them being almost identical. I've been assured that these inconsistencies will be a thing of the past. I suppose that's too little too late for clans like Team-Helix and neegers though. I've also been assured that the policy page will be updated to be 'more clear', I assume this relates to the part about playing with a banned player. So it's okay everyone, we can all go back to accepting ClanBase's ways and means, they'll be fixed soon anyway! Eventually I gave up, having realised that Ginga_Ninja was only one step short of actually making excuses for keran, I quickly whoised him to check if it was keran, having discovered that it wasn't, and that I wasn't the victim of a cruel practical joke, my mind was at ease. For about one second. Are ClanBase really that stupid? Is this leniency really doing anything good for our game, or for gaming as a whole? I was quite shocked by what I was reading.
Some food for thought: why do we actually still play in ClanBase? Most people I speak to are unhappy with the mappool, the config and the ban system. Why do we still play there? What does it have that ESL doesn't have, or even Warleagues for that matter? ClanBase is but a name, and it's a shadow of its former self, it used to be something I looked up to, now it's something I vow to never play in again, if I can avoid it.
good job
Surprising comment though, coming from someone who was victim to this too.
The easiest way is to stop playing ET... plain and simple
0.02$
CONGRATS PrO5 =]
edit: wp butchji, sure you weren't cheating, cause if you were, ban ban ban so dignitas can play further
i would like to see them, they are really good lately...
NOT
tbH, go spec keran his eurocup matches, even my mother is shooting better then that, is this a joke or what?
Although i must say, that those comments arent completly out of place since sol made this post AFTER the game and not before. But despite that fact, i 100% agree with evrything u said. Cheats are cheats and should be treated as such.
That happened to us too, admin sait 'bb cheater' when I asked why I got 12 month ban for pub cheating.
But maybe it was a mistake
2. true, Cb is a bit chaotic organisation, but still its clan base...
ET = CB and no one is able to change it without good coder who will create ranking system as good as clanbase's one..
[wtf with my engrish skilzz? :<<< i cant hit correct button!]
But, this column is to late, you should have made this before the match has started, then they could re-think there decision.
Indeed. But I wonder if it would have been written with such 'passion' before the match or if Dignitas would have won. My guess? I don't think so.
ESL only gave us 1 IPS so far, and I yet have to hear from a 2nd one for ET.
WL is just a joke.
Only remaining organisation is CB.
1. an admin/sup that doesn't know jack about their rules/game
2. the same admin/sup claiming that isn't a problem because he's just a volunteer doing it in his free time
3. unclear rules, I'm not even talking semantics here, some rules just conflict with the next rule on the page
The best league I have played in personally was CAL-euro, but they closed the cod2 section due to lack of interest for a second season unfortunately
And yesh, unfortunately there are a lot of stupid admins these days. I still don't understand why half of them admins signed them up if all they do is "watch" a game.
I really dont want you to reply back, I just want you to think it silently. When you understand the question and figure out the answer, then u can feel proud. I still dont want you to reply back, thanks.
I agree all hackers should be banned from CB and the points/games docked but this is not just any normal hacking situation. Many people have seen keran play at lan and know he doesn’t hack and is good enough to compete at the highest level without the aid of hacks. I am not supporting hacks and agree keran should get a 6-month ban as did razz.
But when you apply this to keran and EuroCup should the ban not have been before the season started or not until after Eurocup finishes. If keran is not allowed to continue to play this EC I can see it being a total fuck up in which Dignitas should take their place instead of us the ET community having to see a weak p5 squad take on tlr. But on the other hand Keran has proven not to hack at cpc 2 so maybe should be allowed to compete in the rest of the EC. Obviously I wouldn’t like to make the decision but these are some of situations that should have been taken into account before the ban.
I can’t believe players like yourself have the cheek to say such shit as this. CB work god damn hard for ET and gets it shoved back in their face every time, why would anyone take their spare time to work for CB when people say this.
1) Clanbase have brought in new sponsors to provide prises for Eurocup. If your not happy with this sol go admin a new cup in wl by yourself or do something productive and join clanbase yourself and help. Will the top clans join without prise money or hardware or play EC just for them?
2) Clanbase is absolutely massive compared to the likes of esl and wl. However you can compare them amazes me. CB run multiple comps in loads of games so obviously things can get bogged down at times, yes they have admins but not enough (EC and OC etc) while wl run the same process but with a lot less teams because the top teams didn’t back it because of the lack of prises (again not support by the likes of you and Dignitas). Everyone knows how wl groups end with 5 inactive out of 7 and that’s even in premier.
3) CB is under staffed; they do it in their spare time for free. Pay them a salary to do it everyday full time and CB would be amazing. They have lives get over it or admin it yourself.
4) CB does have a lot that lets itself down such as the 6on6 ladder ranking etc but this can be changed if someone wants to alter it themselves, no point creating something new when there is a infrastructure in place for a new system that I am sure CB would love to back.
5) “ClanBase is but a name, and it's a shadow of its former self, it used to be something I looked up to” I do agree but nothing has changed within CB itself. I remember when being top of the euro 6on6 ladder was something of prestige but again the top clans don’t back it so its gradually spiralled down to where no one really uses it but the med/lower skilled clans.
So players could go somewhere else but why not change CB for the better instead of running off to a new league/cup that once the size of CB will occur the same problems.
I can think of more but have to restrain myself as i feel i am becoming sun sheng. (For all you gamersnation followers :D)
End rant. :P
Really cba writing anymore :P
Funny how the ESL prizepool is 1000 times the side.
quality>quantity
Did you tell him about Razz? He never used rivatuner in a CB game, but his team still had to forfeit...
Nice double standards :D
Because ET players absolutely hate change. In my opinion we should get a few people together and just stop playing CB, use the ezbash site like tosspot suggested and have an exclusive ET cup.
With summer coming up it is the perfect time to test it out too, run a summer cup to get a feel, test config and maps, and set up a nice competition.
The competition will be much more intimate with the community, things that the communit want will actually get done rather than having to wait a year, cheaters will be banned faster and logical decisions will be made.
/2c
What crossfire have to do is produce a ladder in which being the top means something, for example the top 3 clans leading each ladder (nation size etc, bad example) will be invited to special cups with special prises. (c)
add some life to your sentences, it'd be nicer
am i wrong?
randoms fra
=D
Honestly, there's a bunch of delusional people in this community.
In professional sports, bans after the fact happen ALL THE TIME. Seriously, wake the fuck up. This is how things happen in the real world.
Some people seem to think that because a lot of people play a game that it's somehow entitled to an official govening body which dedicates its time to dealing with cheating/doping/foul play issues.
If gaming is expected to enter the mainstream of competitive sports/e-sports then you have to expect a transitional period where the community feels it needs an authority to make these decisions, but it doesn't have anyone who's dedicated to dealing with the task.
On one hand people just think it will happen, as if by magic, just because a lot of people play it. On the other, they don't want to acknowledge that administering a proper competitive environment takes procedures and processes. And a lot of work. In the meantime, people make themselves feel better by publicly criticising CB - a site which gives so much to the community and just receives abuse in return.
Frankly, the point is made more laughable by the fact that it's based on a result. If the score had been reversed then would it have got the same attention ? No. Which means that people are less concerned about how the game deals with cheats and more about whether cheats win. If you want to be taken seriously, it shouldn't matter.
On a personal note, I thought the Razz ban was a joke given that I'm sure a significant number of the top players breathed a sigh of relief it wasn't them who got banned - but it's kind of irrelevant tbh, he was used as an example and in proper sports shit like that happens.
Deal with it.
Besides that, there are lots of ppl that are taking initiative to make ET competitive gaming more efficient, fun, coherent and bigger.
U sir, are the one that needs to wake up and get things in perspective.
hi@u
i think they have to offer money and lan finals, they have ruined the reputation, why not just put a hold to matches for the time being.
could have should have but didn't do a lot of things and what is done is done :)
maybe he was too stupid to remove the whole hack?
You dont have to use a hack to get kicked for an installed hack or just the last few files which arent out of ur ET when u deinstallate the hack!
(most programs leave some reg-entries or files on your hdd when u just deinstallate it)
:]
<3
n1 CB admins saying that everything you did before this ban was a mistake :D.
It seems like ClanBase are distinguishing between 'types' of cheaters....Is it so hard to enforce a zero-tolerance policy?
I think this is where the whole thing has come un-stuck, trying to be fair by qualifying the nature of the cheat. It just doesn't work.
As a Clan player you have a choice: install a hack on your PC, or not. It's a really simple choice, and if it were policy that any hack detected anywhere on any occassion = ban from all comps and forfeit of all matches, people would know what they were letting themselves in for if they made the wrong choice.
You could take the view that as an individual it's your right to "pwn some noobs" with your multi-hack on "OMGFUN!! 10-map Campaign XP Save Jaymod" server. However as a Clan player, competing in events with rules and procedures, the organisors of those events have the right to not allow you to play.
Until ET has either:-
1. The technology to absolutely prove 100% that NO-ONE ever cheats in online matches
or
2. A zero-tolerance policy (cheat once, anywhere = gone for good)
then we're going to continue having these debates.
The difference with the 2 options above is that the 2nd is a simple matter of choice for the player. NOT installing that hack, NOT using it on ANY server EVER, is something EVERYONE can EASILY do.
clanbase should indeed enforce a zero-tolerance policy, but only for the people that cheat from now on
basically my point is: don't use the current policy to ban people who cheated several months or even years ago
also, if clanbase finally enforces a zero-tolerance policy, other leagues should follow their example
isn't it ricicilous that clanbase/esl/et-cup all have their own banlist?
a player who is banned by clanbase can often still play at esl and in reverse
yes, we need some sort of global anti-cheat policy and banlist
But at the moment it seems loads of people "try" hacks, many do it for fun and only do it on non-PB pubs (not that I think that's acceptable either, but it's a choice everyone's always believed was available to them).
If we had a simple rule:-
Use a hack, anywhere, anytime = global ban
we'd be laughing! They'd be no arguments about what sort of hack it was, or the particular circumstances involved.
In 6 years playing Q3 based games I've managed to completely avoid ever having a hack touch my hard-drive, it's not hard. Anyone who gets caught for anything has made a choice to make that happen. Don't make that choice and you'll have no problems.
no way, CB policy has been for years: it doesn't matter where you cheat, cheat = cheat. only thing they changed is there are all kind of different cheating rules and circumstances that change the punishment. anyway, everyone knew when they installed the cheat it wasn't allowed and they would get banned if busted.
In which case the solution is even simpler, one crime - one punishment.
The root of the problem remains that CB (in fairness to them) are attempting to qualify the nature of the offense, when in fact there's no need.
NOT cheating AT ALL is something that's completely and totally possible for anyone to do, so why have different punishments for different crimes when there's no need for anyone to ever commit any crime?
imo the cheatbusters should look at the people that cheat at the moment.
right now they are banning people that cheated a long time ago, while many people that cheat atm aren't banned
Public apology to Hx please CB.
I just hope RTCW2 will solve shit like this and be more cheater proof.
So, clearly "letting your brother" hack in this game and judging by what i have seen won't make you miss much.
If that's the price you pay for being allowed to play officials, that's the price you pay. You still retain the right to NOT play officials if you so desire.
If the current rules are so complex and contentious simply to protect the right of players to cheat "under certain circumstances" then they're flawed and need to be re-thought.
edit: Replying to AdNoh btw
Sure you can
All this drama could have been avoided with just a little bit of common sense.
* Don't let players pending investigation that may result in a ban play official matches until after a decision has been reached.
* Let the team postpone official matches until after the decision if they want to use the player in question.
The timing in this case is laughable. :P
!!final!!
no suprise really;) norwegian powa
Whether it's high skill or low- team that showed quality on a LAN, it doesn't matter. Only the length of the ban can vary depending on where you cheated (public / CW). The punishment should be ban + forfeit for your team.
How can that game not be forfeited? After all, clanbase decision was put in place in the mean time as p5 played the decider map, which made them win.
Played, and won, with a player that at that time was banned.
How in hell can that be right? So patethic I think I'll get nightmares :(
first map: keran not banned
second map: keran not banned
third map: keran banned
Errrm now how to solve that? :)
rules are rules and clanbase should stick with them
;) holz@ubershrug
Yes :)
ESL>*
Agree 100% with the article.
tho would you even open this if you won?
The sad part here is that if any other team would open something like this, you guys (idle) would laugh @ them like hell wouldnt you?
When ppl whined about clanbase a year ago players in your team laughed.
anyways some good points tho some shit ones aswell, overall nothing will happen anyways in the end, hf.
Maybe add some lawyers too. Imagine it, it could really add some comedy value to xfire.
I agree with sol, he's a nice guy, most of you aren't. bleh
the only difference we should make is:
- cheated once: 1 year ban
- cheated twice: lifetime ban
greez 2 Ben Johnson!
Just imagine the highest possible punishment would be applied to everyone caught with some magic mushrooms or even a pirated DVD (in both cases it can be several years of imprisonment in some countries). You'd approve that I guess? I don't, but to each their own.
ClanBase made a reasonable decision here, despite what the blood-thirsty community demanded of them. I for one respect them for that.
cb said they made a mistake in the razz case (they forfeited helixmatches...it was a mistake - so they should not forfeit matches if a player will get a bust some time after the offi started) - so they treated the pro5, ovr jkzz and neeger cases like they should: players were not banned before the match - thus they gave a 6 month ban to the players and not forfeitwin for the opponents...
Don't hate the player, if you can't play the game.