Norway

Pretty ugly shit going down there.
It's like the most secure place to live and now this....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356
Comments
103
Aww shit, usually don't care about random shootings but thats bad.

image: img-1288514128878
Thats the guy?
Parent
yeah most likely, dont know if police has confirmed it though
Parent
kinda funny since conservatism is based on personal interests rather than a commonwealth belief.
Parent
thats horrible...
Well, it isn't the most secure place
Hmm, I think we might have a new spreekillers.ch record.
Yea, by far if those numbers are correct, http://www.spreekillers.ch/
Parent
91 killed now and still counting :O
Parent
Finnish media says that he can be convicted to jail for 21 years. Seriously? Wtf.

http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/ulkomaat.shtml/2011/07/1364373/poliisi-ampujaa-odottaa-21-vuoden-vankeustuomio
Parent
highest amount of years you can get in Norway..
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They can put him in forvaring for ever though, if they feel like it, no?
Parent
21 years is still a long time. People change a lot in twenty years, and yes, that does include murderers even though moralisers wouldn't like to believe it.
Parent
But it's not just about changing the person who committed the crime, it's about providing justice to society.
Parent
And it's also about not destroying the guy's mind. Rehabilitation counts as well
Parent
In my opinion the point in locking people away is to prevent them causing futher harm to the society, in this case to prevent the bloke from killing 91+ people again.

Now I can't say for certain but I'd imagine that spending 21 years in prison will probably make you think of what you have done enough to not wanting to do it again. That is, if you're not a complete psychopath - and honestly I don't think this guy is in any way mentally wrong in the head (I just know someone is going to get all emotional on this claim and comment something silly like "So killing 91 people is completely normal?") since doing things like that does not make you a psychopath. I think he was just a person very frustrated at the society and blamed the leftist party for this, which is kinda understandable but does not justify his crime.

In other words, I think the guy is not going to do another massacre after spending 21 years in prison, assuming that there's any kind of rehabilitation there. Killing the guy or locking him in prison for the rest of his life is not going to bring back the dead, and it's not going to make anyone really any happier I think, and while both of those methods do ensure that he won't be killing anyone again, there are also other methods to ensure that.
Parent
well but very often people gets psychopatic in prison because of the way of treatment their. But honestly a man who just shooted to fleeing people and kill 84 persons just like in computer games and plant a bomb because of political views must be veeeeeery psychopatic, and i don't see a reason why he should ever go out of prison.
Parent
No, that's misuse of the term. Psychopathy is a medical condition. I believe this man committed the crime in full knoweledge of what he was doing. You don't need to be medically insane to do this kind of things, you simply need to believe enough in your cause (and no, I'm still not trying to justify what he did).

From his point of view he was likely trying to save Norway from the hands of leftist politicians who would "ruin the country", and he did this by killing young would-be leftist politicians. This kind of behaviour is not actually too rare: if Norway was governed by a leftist party that oppressed all other political views he would probably be depicted as a freedom fighter in the media, although in both cases he would have killed a hundred innocent people.

There's (probably) a deeper, philosophical message in what I'm saying but I suck at explaining so I'm just going to gamble and see if people can figure it out themselves.
Parent
QuoteFrom his point of view he was likely trying to save Norway from the hands of leftist politicians who would "ruin the country", and he did this by killing young would-be leftist politicians. This kind of behaviour is not actually too rare: if Norway was governed by a leftist party that oppressed all other political views he would probably be depicted as a freedom fighter in the media, although in both cases he would have killed a hundred innocent people.


I hope you are trolling, because what you describe is textbook psychopathy...

Even simple wiki search can tell you this:

QuoteThe prototypical psychopath has deficits or deviance in several areas: interpersonal relationships, emotion, and behavior.[3] Psychopaths gain satisfaction through antisocial behavior, and do not experience shame, guilt, or remorse for their actions.[21][22][23] Psychopaths lack a sense of guilt or remorse for any harm they may have caused others, instead rationalizing the behavior, blaming someone else, or denying it outright


You are just another pseudo-intellectual, and by the looks of your comments also a psychopath.
Parent
And even worse, a Brink player :O
Parent
What gives he's not feeling remorse for what he did?

Neither of us has any solid intel on the subject, thus claiming that he was or was not a psychopath is quite pointless. I've said that he was not *necessarily* a psychopath, and if he wasn't, he's not beyond help.

E: And dunno but I like to rationalize everything - and that includes cases like this. Is there some other way to approach it? I don't think emotionalizing it would get us anywhere.
Parent
I'm pretty sure normal person would have remorse, guilt, shock, empathy or something, after killing one person. You can't kill this many people with one magazine, one shot or something. Guy was repeatedly reloading, changing weapons and also making sure the ones that are wounded - die, by walking around and shooting the laying bodies in the head. He is a psychopath, you can't rationalize this, seriously.
Parent
In situations like that adrenaline fills you and you just don't think about it, I'd guess.
How do you think people wage wars if they go all emotional and nuts after every time they shoot at an enemy?
Parent
By that logic most soldiers are psychopaths. Ideological difference can be a great basis for rationalisation: see suicide bombers for proof.
Parent
There's a difference between innocent kids and enemy who is fighting you. It doesn't matter what's the cause or reason, once you are in the battle, it's kill or be killed. Here, 15 year old kids, wounded, begging him to spare their lives, and he just calmly executes them...

Also, about soldiers - PTSD.
Parent
The P stands for post, as in after. My point wasn't that the two situations are entirely equal, but you can imagine a situation in which the gunman might believe that the people he was shooting were threatening his way of life. In that case the victims become the enemy, rather than human beings.
Parent
Yeah i can agree with you in the policital aspect because it isnt rare that ppl gets killed because of their political views, but very often it is covered even by the governements etc, informations about this just don't go to media so he just did this what a lot of ppl ruling the coutries does (in usa a lot of ppl were closing for life sentence(or killing) in special covered prisons, it was described in "The Obama Deception" you can find it on youtube, its great anyway). But still imo we can't be sure about that after 21 years in prison he'll understand what he did and he'll not be doing such things, i think it depends on person, some ppl change for good, some change for worse. And i don't think i would be able to kill 91 ppl, until i'll be psychopatic.

Closing ppl in prisons suck, its true but they're just too dangerous, maybe after 21 years when leftist'll start to ruining country he'll make another attack but then he'll kill i.e 1000ppl with some bombs.
Parent
a psychopath never changes
Parent
Yes, because it's a medical condition. I, however, highly doubt that this man was a psychopath. Further medical inspections on the case (which certainly will be conducted seeing that he at least had the guts to face the consequences unlike many other spreekillers) will surely reveal whether I'm correct or not.
Parent
Dont take this personal but i'm glad your opinion doesn't matter
Parent
but still i.e in poland you'll get life sentence for killing with deliberately even 2 persons, or even 1 if you had a pre-judgement or you'll rape and kill someone. So 21 is decisively too little...
Parent
If you kill almost innocent 100 people, especially children you've successfully proven you cannot live in the company of other humans.


How I hate this do-gooder attitude "We have to respect his rights and we cannot destroy his life", eventhough he has just destroyed the lives of 100 people and also that of their families.
Parent
People do change. Although no matter how good of a person he might become will ever justify what he did, there is also no way to un-do what he did. Why should we attempt to cure suffering by causing more suffering?

Even if we killed the guy, stitched him up, revived him and killed him again, it wouldn't bring back those who he killed. And this *shouldn't* really make anyone happier, because if you do find joy in the suffering of others then you are no better than the murderer.
Parent
But try to feel how the families of the victims, i.e(it may sound weird) but someone kill your mother, your lil sis/bro and would you say then "lets close him in prison for 21 years, he will think of it there and when he'll go out will be a good person". It is ridicoulus and yeah, 21 years is too little not for us but for the familes of ppl who died.
Parent
That is because emotions are blurring their judgement. I'm not saying that my emotions wouldn't blur my judgement at least initially in that case, but that's what neutral evaluators exist for.

If that happened to me, though, perhaps over time I would realize that whatever on earth I did to the man it would not bring back my family and undo what he did. Revenge gets you nothing, really. Forgiveness does, but it's difficult to forgive something like that, I know.
Parent
It's not about taking revenge or enjoying his suffering which indeed wouldn't make us better than him nor would it bring back those lost lives.

It's about preventing that something like that can ever be done by him again, it's about getting rid of someone who has obviously no place among humans anymore.

If a pedophile rapes a little child of barely 5 years and kills it, it doesn't interest me in the slightest if he can be "rehabilitated" just like it doesn't interest me at all in this case.
Parent
Who are you, or anyone else, to judge who has no place among humans any more?
Proper rehabilitation will ensure that something like this will never be done by him again, unless, of course, he's mentally ill, in which case he'll be locked up in a mental institution, depending on the severity of the condition, for the rest of his life.

About the pedophile thing, you're letting your emotions cloud your judgement.
Parent
I don't doubt that my emotions play a part here. Obviously I don't think I alone have the right to decide whether he's allowed to live among humans anymore but society as a whole does.

And I don't think many would embrace his reintegration.


Even if you believe rehabilitation is morally justified the statistics pretty much refute the efficiency of that policy.
Parent
Shit man, I kinda hope we'll finally break the 100 mark on that site.
Parent
how sick are you?
Parent
Not very. I'm considering this from a strictly statistics point of view.
To quote my favourite dictator Stalin,
The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.

Although there might be some controversy as to whether hundred teens dead is a tragedy or a statistic.

E: And it's not like having 84 people dead would be any more fortunate than having 100 people dead.
Parent
84 people dead is horrible but 100 people dead is even worse.
Parent
Perhaps, but they've already been killed. My or your individual desires are not going to change the outcome of the killcount in any way.
Parent
yeah well, i still wouldnt hope for someone to kill innocent kids.
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Neither do I.
Parent
I could see your insincerity on IRC quite easily, here however, I believe you are giving an honest opinion. I think the difference between 84 and 100 is quite significant, if you happen to know one of those 16 people.
Parent
Of course every death is significant to the people close to the victim.
However, from a third party's point of view (ie. mine) those 14 (or 9 in this case, if the killcount was "at least 91") deaths do not make much of a difference I'm afraid.

If I mourned over completely random people dying in other parts of the world, I'd probably be mad with depression already. It's best for one's mental health to treat them as statistics.
Parent
so deep man.. so deep
Parent
I don't disagree, I'm not going to sit here and tell you to cry everytime someone dies due to some horrible reason, I just disagree with the black'n'white comparison of liking someone's life to being a statistic, and only that;
'And it's not like having 84 people dead would be any more fortunate than having 100 people dead.'
Doesn't sit well with me! But my opinion is no more right than yours, so point conceded.
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don't see us army on this site :o .
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sick fuck
u ok elsking? <3
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yeah, its far away from me! was chilling with my cognac yesterday ;)
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what about AlleViate?
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revenge of Osama
such a tragedy... I hope that it wont happen again, doesn't matter if it's Norway, Germany, USA or so...
wtf is norway?
A country where people are probably more educated than in yours
Parent
No need for education, those northern oil arabs will do just fine.
Parent
just nuclear bomb all them arab countries
It's a chretian fanatic...
Parent
bomb jerusalem
Parent
fcking sad, how could one guy kill so many ppl :(
On some-what related note, shooter has been said to be a "extreme right-wing christian". Nobody has raised this up (yet), but imagine if they happen to find a CSS-account or metal-music from his computer...
he listen to classic music and vocal trance music... and played alot of WoW :P
Parent
I fucking knew it! WOW is the blame! And that trance-shit.
Parent
oh god.. you're right :>
Parent
Exactly! I just saw this in german television. And in fact they only mentioned the games he played (WoW, Css, MW2) but lost no word about his religious background. Thats so stupid!
Parent
heard of another guy, who went to a norwegian island, said hes a ppolice man, and shot kids and other people, who spent their holidays there.

sad shit!
it was Norway Domi
The same guy put a bomb in Oslo and then left to the Island and slaughtered atleast 84 youngster only because of their policitical view?

"ok"
It's not exactly uncommon for people to kill others because they have different views, really.
Killing because of political opinions is just as (non)sensible as killing because of religious views.
Parent
He went to the Island in a police-uniform with a machine-gun and he looks like a maniac and nobody didnt think thats weird?

what_the_fuck
Parent
He had a submachine gun or an assault rifle, both of which are issued to police officers in special situations (such as a fucking huge bomb going off in the middle of the capital city), so I can kinda see why it seemed plausible to the people on the island.

Also this looks like a normal man and not a psycho to me. Is there a difference between the appearance of the two anyways?
image: 6RXvd
Parent
To go on a camp with and machine gun or an assault rifle? Would NOT seem ok to me.
Parent
*sub*machine gun. This is a submachine gun:
image: hk_mp5n
That particular weapon is standard-issue even in Finnish police forces.
This is a machine gun:
image: fn_minimi_m249
I don't think machine guns are issued to police officers anywhere in the world, really, at least not in Norway.

Although according to my sources it was a rifle, but it's not uncommon to issue those to police officers either.

It's also possible that he didn't disclose his weapon before starting the killing. Actually it's quite likely that he kept it in a case or a bag. Before the massacre he asked people to gather around him, so I guess he bought the gun in a case to someplace before that, and when he had a good bunch of them teens there he took it out and started the... deed.
Parent
he went there because of the bomb threat so having a gun bigger than pistol - I wouldnt call that too unexpected. A lot more suspicious sign would be that he came alone so forget about the gun.
Parent
Se etta toi ei nayta poliisilta, ja etta tulee ison aseen kanssa on ihan saatanan epailyttavaa, ja myoskin se etta tuli yksin. kyl ois pitany kellot soida
Parent
I work pretty much these days ... wtf happend in Oslo ... Al Kaida? or what , tell me pls :X

nvm : German TV send all the infos ..
always wanted to go to this island, until now
HAHAHAHAHA ALWAYS THESE CHRISTIANS.

I'd love to go to the religious ceremonial and yell shit like "SO WHERE WAS YOUR GOD NOW?"
They'll say something like "True christians do not kill" so there, nothing you can say.
Parent
i think some kids were christians ..
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They're in a better place now.... hahaha
Parent
Anyone truly believing everything the Bible says would agree though.

(But the "hahhahaha" about a terrible happening makes him indeed sound "retarded".)
Parent
there aint no words for that
About the prison talk. Yes he will get sentenced and will probably be murdered in prison, but thats the thing. Our world is so fuckt up that in Africa people are dieing because of no food. In Norway somebody can just go and kill 100 people and just be sentenced to 21 years of prison. So he/she who says "justice to all" is a fucking idiot. This guys knows it probably and laughs at the society that is run by an idiots.
You are wrong.

QuoteThe maximum jail time for murder is 21 years.
However, you can be put into what we call "Forvaring".
Forvaring is basically the same as prison, but instead of being there as your punishment, you are deemed to dangerous to be put back into society.
This sentence can be up to 21 years.
When the sentence is almost up, the persons behavior and current situation will be reaccessed, and if he is deemed fit to go back to society, he will be let into society. If he is deemed unfit, he can be put into another 5 years of Forvaring. This process repeats until the person is either let back into society, or he dies.
Parent
Just another proof of the danger of bigots. The likeliness of a Christian fundamentalist to do something like that compared to an Islamic fundamentalist is just smaller - so it comes more of a "shock" as many people described it.
Someone like this has proven himself unfit for society and should be kept away from other people. Let him rot in a cell, he's earned it.

No, it won't bring back the dead nor will it make people happy, but at least it will ensure that this particular madman will never return to a position where he could pull of something like this again. Honestly, this guy wants to play it like this and kill 90 people out of fucking nowhere, let's return the favor. Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth in cases such as these.
the bullshit about the killer playing videogames agian... typical.
I really dont think they are close to being the top of security.
1. they make bad choises in allies
2. they attract hatred
3. easy to occupy
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