For the serious people
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27 Apr 2008, 23:43
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Journals
I write this journal because I'm stuck in a vicious circle-thinkingpattern.
I was thinking about our existence, and kept reasoning in a logical way until I came to this point.
We tend to think in terms of everything having a beginning and an end. Thus we also try to explain where the origins of our universe / existence lie.
Two of the most common explanations are a God who created everything, or a big bang which is still expanding the universe.
Now, take our universe, and give that a value of one.
Since we are looking for a beginning of our universe, we have to reason that beginning with an explanation. Take the big bang, everything is here because of an explosion out of one singular point. Where did this point filled with material come from? What made it instable? If you take this in concideration, you come to the conclusion that this also needs to have a beginning. The beginning of that also needs a beginning, etc etc... You come into a vicious circle-thinkingpattern.
Because you can't define a beginning for our universe, this beginning is defined by a zero. Now how can zero plus zero be one? Every single theory results in mathematical errors.
This gets me to the point of this journal, I don't know what to think or believe now, because there simply isn't any explanation I can think of at the moment. Maybe you guys can enlighten me with new refreshing solutions / possible explanations for this problem. :)
How would you explain the beginning of our universe?
Edit: I won't reply to any insulting, non-serious or other annoying comment, since it's obviously an indication of your incapabilities of involving yourself in a serious discussion, may that be caused by just a lack of intelligence, or just blatant blindness by thinking you don't have to care about the subject.
I was thinking about our existence, and kept reasoning in a logical way until I came to this point.
We tend to think in terms of everything having a beginning and an end. Thus we also try to explain where the origins of our universe / existence lie.
Two of the most common explanations are a God who created everything, or a big bang which is still expanding the universe.
Now, take our universe, and give that a value of one.
Since we are looking for a beginning of our universe, we have to reason that beginning with an explanation. Take the big bang, everything is here because of an explosion out of one singular point. Where did this point filled with material come from? What made it instable? If you take this in concideration, you come to the conclusion that this also needs to have a beginning. The beginning of that also needs a beginning, etc etc... You come into a vicious circle-thinkingpattern.
Because you can't define a beginning for our universe, this beginning is defined by a zero. Now how can zero plus zero be one? Every single theory results in mathematical errors.
This gets me to the point of this journal, I don't know what to think or believe now, because there simply isn't any explanation I can think of at the moment. Maybe you guys can enlighten me with new refreshing solutions / possible explanations for this problem. :)
How would you explain the beginning of our universe?
Edit: I won't reply to any insulting, non-serious or other annoying comment, since it's obviously an indication of your incapabilities of involving yourself in a serious discussion, may that be caused by just a lack of intelligence, or just blatant blindness by thinking you don't have to care about the subject.
tbh I dont think we will ever get the answer to that question, we're all to stupid :D
Ok, I know, I probably won't get a reasonable argument in the replies of this journal, but you never know. I can use all the insights on this subject I can get, it can eventually help me in making the right decision for myself in what to believe, and might even get me to the point where I can contribute my part in science ^^
You should know what happens to some people who get obsessed about a specific topic (genius people especially, Nietzsche going mental, Van Gogh's suicide and so forth) just leave it be :D
And even if such a thing would happen to me, I'd still rather have that then just live my life, only thinking about my social status, and next to that not involving myself in this important issue ;)
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." - Albert Einstein
Thought it was relevant to this thread :)
But I reached 8, and realised that all my schoolmates hated me for being the most boring fuck on earth even though my daddy is a rockstar.
I finally ended my trying to be funny/attention seeking phase with this Journal and realise, in all honesty I need to see a doctor......
my religion teaches God is an eternal being
in that case: what is eternity?
Read up on all sorts of scientific theories and why many people believe string theory plays a significant role in it.
God is a man made creation, not the other way around, God and religion were created to control people.
Religion hinders scientific progress because 9/10 people who follow a religion are narrow minded retards that follow a faith blindly and try to stop any scientists in their path by saying "OMG GOD DID IT STFU".
Religion will be our downfall.
That's a strong statement you make there. Haven't thought about it that way yet... Perhaps religions such as the Islam are subject to this but imo with Christianity this isn't really the case.
They had their very own quests for enriching themselves...
They've always acted as they're better then the regular man in the street (except for some saints who actually deserve their status)
They've also been close with politics for a long long time, which illustrates the exact thing of controlling people. They had the power over people because they gave them something to believe in. And they used it in their lectures to push them in political directions instead of letting the people think for themselves.
Christianity is not any better than any other religion imo...
What the church did with the power they achieved was wrong and only showed that even people who claim to be the closest to their so-called god also get corrupted by power.
So then I ask where was their god than if their god only means the best for the people on the street?
Then again this still is no argument to disprove the fact religion was created with the thaught of controlling the mass in mind. However it would only need 1 smart man to do so...
And yet i dont think its bad to believe in something (god) but for fucks sake dont try to make other people believe it too, dont fucking force your ideas, dont try to discourage anyone from opposing you by threatening.
I wouldnt consider myself ateist... im more like anti-teist (now it might be contradicting the sentence before, but i mean it like this: you believe in god? ok, but i think its a bullshit and that those alike you, when being driven by their beliefs, have caused enough problems in the past and i dont want you to bring the darkness upon us ("the men of science and reason") again)
I know, they say these strings aren't influenced by the time-matrix, but that's like saying 0+0=1, that's reasoning from out of complete speculation, you could justify anything by doing that.
But yea, your right, people have no right of calling religion bullshit, simply because it's just as plausible as all other theories, maybe even more plausible since it gives an explanation for a so called "beginning" (although I highly doubt it's credibility).
"good living"
in the most long winded way of putting it, and most simple.
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
i think if people give them self 100% to a religion then its sad if its changing the way they want to live their life but if they can make it to their own way of believing then i see no harm in it :)
EDiT: im not even religious, i just think some religions give a very basic good guid to how to live a "good" life
First of all, many of the great scientists were good Christians, with a strong belief in God. Names like Millikan, Planck, Marconi, even Dirac (who originally was atheist!) come up after a search on wikipedia. Of course there are many others who did not believe in God, and even more whose religion is not mentioned. And these are only 20th century scientists, be sure there are many more examples from earlier days. (later phisicists tend not to have thorough wikipedia pages).
Secondly. Yes, there are plenty of stories that can't possibly be true, but think about it. Have you heard of metaphors? Do you know it's theoretically possible (highly improbable though) that a table would just start to levitate, when at a certain point all the molecules engaged in thermal motion would have their directions pointing up.
Thirdly. Our world is being gouverned by 6 numbers (there is a book about it), something like: the gravitational force is proportional with the inverse of the distance to the power of 2. What if it wasn't 2? What if it was 1.99999 ? Even the slightest changes in the way things are in physics would have not only rendered life impossible, but also the whole universe would have died a long time ago.
A black hole only has mass and momentum, any other information is lost. A black hole represents a discontinuity in time. In a black hole, the concept of time loses it's understanding. Before Big Bang, that's all there was in the universe: just a black hole, but way smaller yet it containted all the matter in the world. So why did it explode, giving birth to the universe, when there is no concept of time, so basically that black hole can not evolve? (exactly the original question) Is it that hard to believe that there is a God that made it all possible?
There are many more scientists that talk about God, as something similar to an ultimate force that dictates the laws of the universe. There probably are many books that show why there is a God, and there surely are many that prove otherwise. One particularily interesting quote (i can remember who said this originally) is this: What's there to lose if you believe in God, and there is no God after all? But think about what you lose if you don't believe, and God exists!
I hope you don't see this as some sort of persuation, but there are quite a number of people in this world who are religious. Why call it bullshit (twice)? Do you really think that science and religion can not co-exist? Is it really that hard to imagine that science is actually trying to figure out the mechanism behind God's creation? Of course the church was not always right, but that doesn't mean anything, tbh...
Off to bed now, I've spend too much time writing this... I hope you won't argue with me :) Just accept this as my own personal oppinion. I know yours already. Gn
Pascal said that and that's one of the most retarded things I have ever heard!
There are valid reasons as to why many people throughout history have been religious, but it's not necessary to get into that as your point can be defeated without doing so. It is true that many scientists have been religious, but the fact is that that doesn't imply the existance of any god. I could say that many dictators throughout history have had moustaches, but in truth having a moustache doesn't make you a dictator, and believing in god doesn't make the existance of one any more likely.
Much like your first point, this gives no credence to the notion of a god existing. What I can't figure out is why you're using an example of a scientifically proven (yet apparently highly unlikely) phenomenon in an attempt to prove that a deity exists.
And again, this proves god how?
This point just defies logic. Are you suggesting that because scientists have yet to figure out black-holes, that we apply a fairy-tale with absolutely no scientific grounding to explain it? What if Newton had of done that? 'I've almost worked out gravity but I'm not quite there yet, fuck it, I'll just say Thor is responsible, nobody can disprove that.'.
If you can point me to even one book which proves the existance of god I will consume my own testicles. It's also interesting to observe that no book exists which disproves the existance of god. Science has no personal vendetta against religion and science cannot prove that god doesn't exist, it can only show that the possibility of one existing is very, very, very small.
You should watch this, it effectively puts to bed many of your arguments: http://www.ajula.edu/Content/ContentUnit.asp?CID=1766&u=7037&t=0
Two examples of such books?
I'll watch the vid at some later point, now i GTG to uni.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law#Electrostatics
The inverse square law in gravity and electrostatics is something that was taken for granted, and then experiments were made that proved it, to a certain extent (less than 1 part in 10^15 is different as it says there).
Therefore, I choose to believe God exists! What don't you get about this being a personal oppinion? I try to respect your oppinion, are you trying to respect mine? The whole thing that got me started onto this topic was Panda's chosing of words and of tone.
Notice how this is a personal offence towards me and others. Did I offend you in any way?
While Panda's choice of words was quite unfortunate, his point stands. You didn't offend me in any way and I think that I didn't offend you either, but don't expect me to respect your opinion, there's more to it than just some personal choice. There is no reason to believe in god and it makes me sad how people worship a deity for invalid reasons, that has never caused anything good.
In the first case, if we finally manage to find solutions to all the problems, the religions should disappear because there is no reasons for them to exist.
In the second case, or if one proves that something can't be explained through rational thinking, we have an issue and I srsly can't blame one for believing.
I think that every smart person should have a life philosophy concerning God and not deny it from start. Mine is (and I don't know if anyone said this...):
There should be 2 kinds of people, those who believe and look for proofs that He doesn't exists and those who don't believe and look for proofs that He exists. I'm in the first category.
(I'm sorry for my engrish skillz :D)
That's why im saying that i don't blame one for believeing in God / Allah / Budhha / <ask it how you like> as long as i can't prove him wrong.
And about my life philosphy, you can see it as a middle path between exagerated faith and extreme atheism as none of them are strong enough "theories". I think that I'll use it until I find something more suitable for me life.
„You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I’ll show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.” morfeusz
same goes for religion just do what makes you happy in your own life ;)
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hi pansy! :D
And pls don't make such journals here, it is pointless and it'll get you nowhere, if you're sincerly interested go look elsewhere, and not on a fckin gaming website pls....
2nd of all, I think it's good to think about these things. I might not be an educated philosopher, but imagine that everyone would be thinking about this subject, we would be a lot further now I wanna bet :)
cause perfo says my reply aint strong enough i'll just ask you to die of aids instead. thanks
On your 2nd note, it might be good to think about these things, it might not be. Many of men has been driven to insanity by these same subjects. And how would we be further if every1 would be thinking about this? 60% of the ppl from the country you live in have an education lower than 'mbo', and this is considered to be a smart country. How can so many ppl with such limited knowledge and IQ force any form of breakthrough on this subject?
Don't get me wrong i've thought about this subject loads, always to come to a somewhat similair conclusion to you. But to be fair worlds greatest minds have pondered on this endlessly and gotten us not much further. I highly doubt anybody on crossfire could shed anymore light on it. And i'm pretty sure you'd have a better result at understanding things like this by using google and plowing through endless theory's about dimensions, and endlessly long mathematical equations that are unsolvable not only for us, but also for ppl that studied mathematics to the highest degree.
I appreciate your thirst for knowledge on this matter, yet i always question someone's sincerity about any subject if they post about on crossfire.
you're actually right, but still I'm curious on ppl's vision here, so it can never hurt to ask. I mean, how long does it take to make this journal ;)
Maybe i'll go to my quantum mechanics classes just cuz of this journal :p
An infinite number of theories? Plz...
Shows how much you really know about this subject.
The universe has most likely always been. It never began and will never end. It probably changes and fluctuates but that is of little consequence to you or me.
james joyce made that quite clear in finnegans wake. ;)
Waiting for the last part sucks though
waters raining, hits the ground, gets into the ground, gets into a river, gets into the sea, sun hits it, it goes up into the air, its raining, water raining.
why should it be anything else?
and i think we understand that new stuff just doesnt pop out of the blue, it can be transformed from another thing. but its always the same.
earth will also have the same weight forever (well unless we get massive amounts of moonstone on earth...) since humans are transformed out of earth, and humans transformed into earth.
coming and going, transforming :)
Uhm.. No?
btw u could have gotten ur message across with one line
Try thinking about death like this instead 8D
as Xo said, not every is able to think 'outside the box'.
you can't, give up
So there was no "beginning" and there will be no "end" .. simple as that. Everything is happening at the same "moment" we just believe it's a timespan.
gn8
In every case, there's compromise (this is because we're incapable of understanding), every field there's a certain point of letting go and just believing. Whether you focus on theology, mathematics, science, or philosophy is irrelevant.
There are a few certainties though. Humans are self absorbed and self deprecating creatures, which perpetuate and indulge ever expanding forms of 'intelligence' and 'creativity' to explain basic principles. The universe is being compared in relation to us, if history has taught us anything, it's that the 'world' (the sun) doesn't revolve around us.
edit: Melkor would be good for this discussion, and the circular, revolving / James Joyce comment was the only semi-intelligent reply so far.
nobody knows, u only can have ur own opinion
Me for example belives about some high thing outside there,some people might call him/it/her :P god..
who didnt had some really really strange flukes/hazards?
But imoh the religion with all it groups and varaties is bullshit
cheapest way to control a big mass of ppl.
They always try to keep the real reason in the background like USA > Iraq
why dont they just bomb out China in the public .. 2 many ppl imoh :2
or give me a less painfull way how to decrease the number of ppl over there :>
PPlz are always hunting for power and to control other ppl..
I explain myself why humans act like they act because either they want to survive or
they want to propagate themselves.
But what im writing here is so old and known and so sensless
there might be some really intelligent ppl here in xfire surely not me..
as u noticed at my english skillz..
but no offence nobody here will give an opinion which moves us thinking in another direction or gives us a not already known point of view..
however, this is not the way religion advocates for
as about china, i'm not sure america will ever bomb it... it's too big, too many people, it's a nuclear power... americans aren't stupid, you know ;)
You wanted another;
We couldn't have our cake;
So we ate each other.
For victory we ride
We fight the world on these battlefields
To re-erect the pagan pride
We draw the blood of those in our way
It's 'victory or die
With pounding, raging fury we slay
Now Christian hounds will pay
Charge ahead, no retreat
No mercy, none shall live
To us there is no defeat
No remorse to give
A wind of power blows from the north
The enemy shivers to the core
We slay with strength, pushing forth
Silence before the storm
The gates of Valhall open up
The ground beneath us shakes
As Odin leads the Gods to war
The Rainbow Bridge cracks
Nothing can stop this final attack
We carve up all in our path
Now there is no turning back
Final battle is here at last
A feast awaits us when we get back
Awaiting all that fought in wrath
By the long fires we sit in glory
And beer cools our soar throats
We are few but strong in will
The last with pagan blood
We fought the world with burning steel
Now we sit in Hall of Gods
Pride and glory in our hearts
I don't believe the way the universe began has any bearing on the 'does God exist' debate. You could hold to the belief that God is some external entity that (metaphorically) waved his godly hand and wished everything into existance, equally you could say that he just set everything in motion, through a big bang or diverse other possible universe begginings. You could hold to Leibniz's theory that God is infused in every fundamental particle of matter, knowing the position of every other particle of matter (vis a vis gravity), and that this ability to know the entire universe is, in itself, God, thus God literally is the universe. Alternatively you could take the view that God doesn't exist at all. None of this, however, barring the Leibniz theory, has any bearing on the creation of the universe.
I'm curious cos China has always had me enchanted :o)
What job do u do that you're to China? :P
and their exhaustion to things which getting closer and closer is growing.
Pls invent a painless weapon of mass destruction.
who cares they all look the same :<
I care as much as if theres a bicycle which toppels down somewhere in China if there would be 2000 ppl less and i could drive much cheaper with the car :>
or on dragonball z they got liek all the dragonballz and wished us a universe, np4them
... but on a more serious note, god does not exist else people would not be born with problems that cause them to do wrong or unable to think and do for themselves in the world (mentally impaired) as everyone says free will is what god wanted... bs... all contradiction... imo god is just similar to a childs bed time story that developed into someone people can use as a dependant cushion on life... but thats just me (:
so science would explain how the universe began, just it never will becase we are too far gone and there is no way for us to go back in time, unless something again happened similar in a galaxy close to ours which we monitored for (1 in a billion billion chance or something silly).... over1 billion years
nuff said.
erm... wrong...
have you heard about the recent scandal about creating the newest particle accelerator at Geneva, the strongest one to date? they were sued because the particle accelerator has the power to create a black hole, that could destroy earth.... that's how we go back in time: we use high energy to smash stuff onto each other, and then we observe what happens
Analysing data from the past is, of course, possible. Slowing time to a point where it is infinitessimaly slow may also be possible (but this is actually more useful as a mechanism for time travel to the future, which is definitely theoretically possible just by simple relativistic theories).
P.S. Protons, you're next!!! xD
However, observation of anything more than a few seconds in the past is probably only available on the grandest of macro scales. I would guess you couldn't, for example, use a hypothetical mirror half a light year away and, with an exceptionally powerful telescope (or array thereof), read the text on a page I was holding a year ago.
and you got my point wrong again ;)
you don't observe what happened in the past per se, but at higher energies, you make the same thing happen again! you recreate events that have occured in the early universe (and probably some other limited and distant place we don't otherwise have access to). i hope it's even more clear now :)
You were being more metaphorical (and more realistic) than I'd realised. For some reason I'm not as fascinated by blue skies science as I used to be - I still think it's very important, but it would be nice to have a major breakthrough in the next few years to reinvigorate investment and interest.
I'm suing Robert Zemeckis for creating BTTF !!!
But I also think you're asking the wrong question: the how isn't very hard to comprehend with just a basic understanding of physics and mathematics. You can take nothing and split it into a positive and a negative. -1 plus 1 still makes nothing. And when you throw those two forces together you get a reaction that could explain the big bang.
What you need to ask yourself is why.
Interesting you were the one who brought it up.
at least it made me laugh :)
Im God , I made the world and im not proud of it , sorry.
since i'm sooooo smart i'll explain it to you
It's made out of poo
which advantage would u get from knowing things like that? would your live be better because of that?
I guess not, just live ur life and dont waste your time by asking stupid questions u will never get answered anyway.
you want to talk about it?
pm me :<333
i can debate anyone on this forum about astronomy and religion
im an atheist