I suppose most of you know the map Warbell designed by German mapper McNite from UBC Clan. The map itself is loved by a huge part of the public community today, however the map never really made it into competition play. Before Warbell got released to the public McNite worked close together with Adlernest Designer Dersaidin from Australia to make it competition ready. Even a showmatch broadcasted by GIGA eSports has taken place to introduce the map to the competitive community. Back then the majority came to the conclusion that Warbell wasn't suited for leagues eventhough it might have just needed some more test games. Now the call for new maps can be heard widely. Maps like Braundorf, Frostbite and Adlernest which were once praised as the new maps for the future became maps which are rather disliked by a large part of the scene. Those maps are often called 'Lotto-maps' and take usually not more than four to five minutes to be completed. This is actually not the gameplay we like, as many of us still remember maps which lasted more than 30 minutes. Of course we don't hate 'short' maps but when waiting for the opponent lasts longer then the actual practise match there is something wrong.[img|left]http://i41.tinypic.com/24355xx.jpg[/img]Today maps with outside areas and different stages are wanted more than ever. Even maps like Bremen which look quite ugly (author's opinion) make it into today's mappool and are accepted by the community. The community is fed up with playing indoor matches with more walls than anything else. The huge cheater paranoia might be pushing that opinion even more.
So what we want are new maps for competition. Some even want good old Oasis to come back with some improvements of course. Others would like to play Railgun again. Another alternative would be Warbell. Warbell is one of the most lovely detailed and great looking custom maps around. Not playing it in tournaments would be a shame for such a pretty map. Lately McNite announced his comeback to active mapping.
Over at the Splashdamage forums he asked for suggestions regarding his Warbell project. As the public communty pretty much loves the map how it is there is no real need for changes. Competitive players may think different. So here is our chance. In case we come up with constructive critics and good suggestions to make the map suited for competition, McNite may create a tournament edition of his map for us. It's now up to you to convince him. Give suggestions for how to improve the map and maybe we can already play and watch Warbell_te at CC6 (eSports Heaven) and the next EuroCup.
and for the RTCW lovers, let make this clear...
RTCW maps DO NOT[/u] work in ET. (RTCW = small, short, and inside only maps)
Nice things in the map:
- The first part, its a competition of who strafes the fastest to capture the flag.
- Spawn Strafe Jump
- Need to steal the objective and run (don't need to move tanks or other annoying stuff)
Things which i don't like in ICE:
- Snow
- Map is usually finished in ~5 minutes, just like Frostbite, Adlernest and Braundorf.
- Allies are close to the spawn, if they lose a spawn or are too slow they will lose instantly, just like in Adlernest, too lotto.
- Axis attack and Allies defend.
- The objective is placed at a high place, too much ladders needed to climb to reach the objective
- Too short
- Allies cannot spawn at the flag
- Axis cannot permanently capture the flag
and its a typical rtcw map (small, short, inside only, lots of small corridors... nice for the fast and dynamic rtcw gameplay but i hate it in et)
That's why RTCW map DO NOT WORK in ET ;-)
Axis attack and Allies defend. - lol what? :X
Too short - used to play it all the time in 3o3 ladder and had a lot of double fullholds :<
Allies cannot spawn at the flag - that would suck theyd just /kill out every spawn and hold the first stage for the whole round
agree on the other points though
That's what is nice with those maps, if you're an idiot with any gamesens you lose :)
i like that you can recapture flags. its produces a similar effect to spawnkilling the defenders. makes the defense less monotone compared to just wiping out waves of attackers by spam, better positions and camping.
This is why maps like village and base never worked in ET, this style of defending leads to these so called 'lotto' defeats - RtCW has just had more dynamic defences than ET.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
^^^^^^^^^^(6on6)
They dont work for ET, except for Beach.
If ET was the same than RTCW, why would the game exist ?
They werent designed for the same game.
Both games have huge differences, especially concerning weaps.
And btw, why don't we have this topic with frostbite ? It is also a RTCW map, this map is often play without so much whine...
And well, Frostbite sux tbh.
Imo an Oasis version witha closer allies spawn to the objective wouldnt be that bad.
I'm opened to some new map but playin old rtcw map would suit me too.
its got plenty of bugs, its even worse then etmain. hitboxes are fubar, no antilag, spawnshield is only 2 seconds, you can push spawning ppl back with spam eventhough they have a shield, nades are totally overpowered, screenshake from arty and support is a bitch etc etc etc
only reason why ppl still believe rtcw is that good is cause of nostalgia. ET with etpro is a much more mature and balanced game.
theres many in et too
hitboxes are the same in rtcw as in et.. its just the spread and lack of antilag what makes u think its not registering ur hits
yeah spam is big part of rtcw whos to say things are perfect and balanced in et
its not bad its just different if u were to play it more u would realize that
im against rtcw hate and et hate, both are fantastic games.. and ignorant people who have played the other for long and quickly try the other go araund and flame because they are not able to adjust and just get owned
btw i still like et more
not true, rtcw = etmain hitboxes.
RTCW has a higher firerate resulting in nades being made stronger to balance things out. ET has slower firerate, thus nades were made weaker also as its much easier to throw a nade to someone's face in ET compared to RTCW mostly due to the firerate. I find ET's balance much better :)
I played RTCW as a pubnoob back in the days. I did enjoy it a lot, but playing it again today you can only say the gameplay has evolved to the point where ET is the superiour game. RTCW just feels unbalanced. And i didnt get owned :DDD timenudge ftw!
The only decent competition mod for RTCW is unfinished and definitely buggy and the hit boxes are a joke whereas etpro it definitely more polished.
Still both are great games, I would love to have gotten more into ET but rtcw still calls to me :).
EDiT: Imo maps like dubrovnik/secret weapon/sottevast are suited more for competition gameplay with the right changes to it.
Anyway, with that out of the way, I've long thought that (with a bit of simplification) Warbell would make a great comp map. For example, remove the satchel-objective side gate, either remove the bell construction or make it impossible to destroy and remove the requirement to ring the bell. And, regretfully, as awesome as the final stage is, it could probably be shortened to 1 or 2 sacrifices. The docs are also up for debate - I think a properly designed Warbell docs defence would hold for a very long time (it would need really good comms though, so maybe no bad thing). The biggest change I'd recommend, though, would be a 40 second axis respawn.
ouh and i can't see the "sacrifice" part work out either in competition. especially in random mixes ppl won't like to play it since they often play for stats/dmg (and there are so many random mixes nowadays) which won't help to get the map accepted either (sad but still).
there are maps which would be way easier to make competitive.
My ideal maplist (for this state of ET!) would be something like:
* supply
* bremen
* sw_goldrush
* sp_delivery
* radar
* one of; warbell/sos secret weapon/dubrovnik/battery/karsiah/reactor/totally new map (ofc with some improvements needed for some maps)
So that means we'll get rid of; frost, adler, braun, ..
Edit: Sottevast!
I loved it, but nowadays oponent calls u crazy if you want to play it.
fuck yeah :) Most medskillers can only play braun/adlernest (read: flat indoor maps where one only has to aim left and right with lots of walls to lean to make up for 0 gamesense skills)
and with some changes for players like you who dont enjoy touristic/jogging it would be map for competetion again!
Problem is the vast majority of players have their heads stuck up 2005's ass & despise anything new. The mere mention of something new & the whine can be heard from Germany to California. Shame really
Eim and me are still making a map and it'll be released very soon. But I think noone will care since the scene doesn't accept "new" maps. Seems like it's just a waste of time.
battery and oasis are nice but too easy to fullhold and its not nice to have one map deciding the outcome of a game
et_village
mp_assault_rc1
te_escape2
mp_sub_rc1
et_beach
tc_base
et_ufo_final
mml_church
chateau_final
WE ARE ON ET ALLO
whatabout sos_secretwapon or something like that and raw_te / raw_final or something like that.. >_>
http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142405#post142405
Must prove you wrong here :p
btw pls answer my email :<
But warbel is too long imo.
google just give me bullshit links with 5 kb/s max
Hah, this one is so true :)
Anyway, I haven't played/tested/seen warbell in action yet. We need some cups or showmatches or stuff like that to see what the map is about. Btw, is it suitable for 3on3 as well as 6on6?
It's the third map, so takes a while to get to, but gives a good overview of both the good (decent tactical map) and the bad (too defensive, too many stages) things about Warbell. Plus it was an awesome match :D
On maps like ice it is just a big part which shouldn´t be canged and still works perfect in ET.. there are 2 objectives at the end.. the flag & the doc. it lets so much freeroom for makeing tactics on both sides. .. like just going for the recapture and don´t care abotu the doc.
What you said about smartness of covert ops blowing cp - i'd agree with that in goldrush_te case. You definitely need to know when you can and when you cant go and if you do it in a wrong time/someone sees you - you failed. Frostbite? you can just go back way :)
I agree on that freedom of tactics part though
As someone above said, sacrifice is a novel objective, but probably not something you'd want in competition.
I'd suggest removing the sacrifice and the bell construction. Instead go with a dyno objective, perhaps followed by a doc run to bring docs (or book in this case) out of abbey. Although the spawn locations aren't particularly good for a doc run, perhaps move allies abbey spawn closer to side gate
I'd also suggest making each stage a little easier to attack. Particularly the abbey gates - perhaps add another dyno gate (wall breach like supply) between the next two towers, near those front stairs.
Finally, there's a too many rooms in the abbey for 6v6 competition. I'd cut out the basement entirely, remove quite a bit of the roof space, and try to simplify the rooms inside.
I think the first phase is already pretty nice for competition. Perhaps expose the defenders on the battlements a bit more, and perhaps widen some parts of the tunnels/dungeon.
McNite will probably not appreciate my suggesting simplification of the abbey. From a mappers perspective, it is a beautiful building. The detail, atmosphere and architecture are much nicer than anything in any of my maps. However for competition its all about gameplay. The gameplay of this map is more suited to campeign better than stopwatch.
Some other things:
+Make axis spawntime 20 and allies spawntime 30.
+Remove the second tunnel, for more action near cp + gate.
+Remove some pilars in the middle of the halls.
+Something has to be changed (or removed) at the back of the cathedral.
+It should be easier (faster) for allies to push out from the cathedral to cp.
The objective really needs to be changed for competition. Either some kind of docrun like sp_delivery, where you need to secure some books/gold from cp to the cathedral. Or you need to secure some docs (from the cathedral) on a truck (maybe at back of the cathedral) and then move it to cp.
I also played warbell some year(s) ago but didn´t enjoed it tbh :(
In my opinion we should get ppl to remake beach or ET_ICE !
Well i think et_ice is perfect already for 6v6 if both teams know how to paly it.. because then it won´t be just a 3min map.
I think dubrovnik & cathedral (+soem changes maybe) > warbell
also the sw_battery & sw_oasis are great maps
another point u mentioned about lotto maps, i disagree, ET needs atleast 2 of them in competition constantly to keep stuff entertaining (where frost & adler are my favorites for this.)
http://www.gamestv.org/event/1103-organised-chaos_vs_retro4u/
And warbell is idd a nice map.
Why not even try vengeance_te_final or Raw Castle for war maps.
Cause i think it is really starting to get time for some major map changes.
I think it's always been like this. Just take a look at the first maps: goldrush, fueldump, radar ..
6on6 maplist of the century:
TC_Base
Oasis (old!)
Bremen
sw_goldrush
Supplydepot
Radar
Reactor_final
The only thing that's need to be changed is to relocate the allies spawn closer to axis one. Above the tunnel for example.
The perfect maplist would look like this:
sw_goldrush_te
Radar
Frostbite
Oasis
sp_delivery_te
Bremen
Supply
Variation doesnt mean cutting off maps and placing new ones in their place, but rather making the choice bigger during the same tournament.
NOOOOOOOOOW
+1
because all these "new players" who play just on wall maps and think they are best hate new maps.. why? because they dont know where to camp or they just cant hide anywhere so they get owned..
Would be very interesting to see Beerrun make the mappool xD
Map Pool
delivery
sw_goldrush_te
sw_oasis
bremen
village
snatch ^^
Personally always enjoyed sos & Reactor, if I was to revive a map.
my opti mappool:
sw_oasis
sw_goldrush_te
bremen
radar
supply
sw_battery/sos_secretweapon/new one
the problem with this map is most ppl doesn't know how to play this in 6v6. they don't have seen it in 6v6 so they just say that map sucks. or the 35sec respawn of axis sucks.
learn to look at your spawntime. and if you really can't handel it make it 30sec, not that it matters. you can make some lame kickass defences on this map. so it doesn't have to be a quick map like all of you are saying.
plus winghaven will be happy with this map; lovely to play with a pf in defence but also in atack.
just learn to play beach and you'll see.
perfect Mappool
warbel shitimap...
Several of the other entries for the CPC2 mapping contest were passable, and could've made good comp maps with some work - Field_HQ and Odenthal both had a lot of potential, but needed some bug fixes and more work. It'd be nice to see a new version of one of them.
It would need very much editing imo, though i'm not quite sure yet what I'll do when my current project is finished. Time will tell
we dont need to fix radar, we need a new map like radar, and play both in competitions :D
Played warbell aswell, it was just like supply but.. different :P
edit: read it but still No
just wait 1-2 months for eiM's and xeonis (or something like that :d) map
no more small corridors like in delivery / braundorf.
no more 90 degree corners all over the map like in delivery and braundorf.
no more stupid "make 5 objectives at the same time" like in delivery.
no more "let's PIMP old shit maps". they were and are shit like delivery.
so let the shit rest in piece.
problem solved. next column plz and delete this shit.
I like it :D
better REMAKE OASIS,RAILGUN and FUEL TO COMPETITION MODE! I will give 10Euro for it... whos next?
+ frost_final looks nice
In my view is Warbell one of the best maps in ET and it would be great if we play this Map in Leagues, Cups etc.
But Wolken, Karsiah and Oasis_te or Oasis also must be in the Mappools of CB, ESL etc.
http://www.battle-of-wolken.co.uk/maps.php
[url]http://www.battle-of-wolken.co.uk/maps.php?p=wolken1[/url]